You see the problem with this is a referendum was promised on a treaty. This treaty no longer exists. So going on about Labours manifesto promise not being met, just shows the media spin you all listen too.
Referendum ? ?Bottled??
Re: Referendum ? ?Bottled??
quis custodiet ipsos custodes
Re: Referendum ? ?Bottled??
"You see the problem with this is a referendum was promised on a treaty. This treaty no longer exists. So going on about Labours manifesto promise not being met, just shows the media spin you all listen too."
Blah blah fucking blah. Go away and suck Gordon Brown's shitty cock you NuLab sock puppet.
You'll be trying to argue that Brown isn't a greasy little coward next. If you refuse to accept all the evidence that the Reform Treaty is the Constitution in all but name, than you are simply not worth talking to.
Blah blah fucking blah. Go away and suck Gordon Brown's shitty cock you NuLab sock puppet.
You'll be trying to argue that Brown isn't a greasy little coward next. If you refuse to accept all the evidence that the Reform Treaty is the Constitution in all but name, than you are simply not worth talking to.
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beutelwolf
- Posts: 1210
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Referendum – ‘Bottled’?
Robches wrote:
> If you refuse to accept all the evidence that the
> Reform Treaty is the Constitution in all but name, than you are
> simply not worth talking to.
Well the main difference from what I have heard is that they have taken all the symbolic stuff that makes it constitution-like out (flag, hymn, that kind of thing), and kept the concrete stuff in, such as voting systems.
In practice that makes very little difference, except in one respect: it drops the pretense of the whole thing being a constitution, which is what many people objected to in the first place, regardless of the rest of the content.
With the British press as it is no referendum on Europe would go through, regardless of content.
The man I really blame about this mess is G?nther Verheugen, the EU commissioner who is responsible for letting the EU expansion go ahead without an EU reform being in place. In other words, the alternative for the member states should have been: you can vote down the reform treaty, but then you vote down EU expansion as well. We need a reform because of the expansion - with veto rights for 25 (or whatever the number is these days) countries nothing would ever get done, and the old farming subsidy system couldn't survive the expansion either.
> If you refuse to accept all the evidence that the
> Reform Treaty is the Constitution in all but name, than you are
> simply not worth talking to.
Well the main difference from what I have heard is that they have taken all the symbolic stuff that makes it constitution-like out (flag, hymn, that kind of thing), and kept the concrete stuff in, such as voting systems.
In practice that makes very little difference, except in one respect: it drops the pretense of the whole thing being a constitution, which is what many people objected to in the first place, regardless of the rest of the content.
With the British press as it is no referendum on Europe would go through, regardless of content.
The man I really blame about this mess is G?nther Verheugen, the EU commissioner who is responsible for letting the EU expansion go ahead without an EU reform being in place. In other words, the alternative for the member states should have been: you can vote down the reform treaty, but then you vote down EU expansion as well. We need a reform because of the expansion - with veto rights for 25 (or whatever the number is these days) countries nothing would ever get done, and the old farming subsidy system couldn't survive the expansion either.
Re: Referendum ? ?Bottled??
NuLab sock puppet? Moi? !laugh!
Have you read both versions of the Treaty? Thought not.
Have you read both versions of the Treaty? Thought not.
quis custodiet ipsos custodes
Re: Referendum ? ?Bottled??
"Have you read both versions of the Treaty? Thought not"
No, I trust people like Gisela Stewart, or the House of Commons Europe Committee, or the governments of France, Germany, Spain, Ireland etc, who all say the two documents are, to all intents and purposes, the same. Just about the only people in Europe who deny it are the British Cabinet, and we all know why.
"Well the main difference from what I have heard is that they have taken all the symbolic stuff that makes it constitution-like out (flag, hymn, that kind of thing), and kept the concrete stuff in, such as voting systems."
I think you've got it completely arse about face. Stuff like the flag and the anthem (both of which exist anyway) are just froth. Voting systems etc are the real meat of the Constitution, and that's what's been kept.
Instead of having one Constitution to replace all existing EU treaties, they have produced a reform treaty, which keeps the originals in place, but amends them. That's why lying sacks of shit like Denis McShane can say that the constitution was 157,000 words, whereas the reform treaty is 44,000 words, so they can't be the same. He's lying and he knows it, he just hopes you don't.
No, I trust people like Gisela Stewart, or the House of Commons Europe Committee, or the governments of France, Germany, Spain, Ireland etc, who all say the two documents are, to all intents and purposes, the same. Just about the only people in Europe who deny it are the British Cabinet, and we all know why.
"Well the main difference from what I have heard is that they have taken all the symbolic stuff that makes it constitution-like out (flag, hymn, that kind of thing), and kept the concrete stuff in, such as voting systems."
I think you've got it completely arse about face. Stuff like the flag and the anthem (both of which exist anyway) are just froth. Voting systems etc are the real meat of the Constitution, and that's what's been kept.
Instead of having one Constitution to replace all existing EU treaties, they have produced a reform treaty, which keeps the originals in place, but amends them. That's why lying sacks of shit like Denis McShane can say that the constitution was 157,000 words, whereas the reform treaty is 44,000 words, so they can't be the same. He's lying and he knows it, he just hopes you don't.