Collateral murder?

[jimslip]

Secret footage from a Apache helicopter gunship, dealing with a group of Iraqis, including 2 kids and 2 reporters carrying cameras.

[one eyed jack]

Post this on your This is an Outrage thread earlier this week

[justincyder]

bah you beat me to it Jim. I posted it a wee bit ago but have just spotted yours.

[jimslip]

It looks frighteningly like a computer game, except it's REAL innocent people being killed. I reckon the on board camera is zoomed in and the helicopter is actually quite high, because it's strange that the victims don't appear to be aware of it.

[Ned]

I watched the full video (I haven't clicked your link so don't know how long it lasts, but the one I watched was 17 minutes long) a couple of weeks ago. I know it is shocking viewing but the only guy who should really be facing charges is the one who claimed the guy with the camera had fired his weapon. Which didn't exist of course. He lied to get clearance to fire. But in a way I can't blame him...

Put yourself in their shoes for a minute though. You are in a war zone where RPGs are used regularly to target troops and you have a patrol in that area. You see a group of men with two carrying what look like launchers on their shoulders. They are skulking about the back streets and one of the men with what looks like a weapon is crouching at the corner of the street, peering around the wall of a building, and looks like he might be preparing to fire. Do you take the risk, or do you fire on the group?

After the initial volley of shots they are considering whether to take out the wounded guy when a van arrives to take him away. As far as they know he is the enemy and the enemy are there to take away a wounded man. The van has no markings to show it is an ambulance (because it isn't) and despite the "after the fact" addition of captions that points out children in the front seat, you can't see from the pictures that they are kids at all. So do you let an "enemy" escape or do you take them out? You shoot them.

The language they use and the way they talk about shooting these people is only to be expected. You have to be detatched and dehumanise people if you're in the army because you've got to kill them. If you don't distance yourself from them as people you'd go bonkers, so the language and eagerness to kill them doesn't shock me.

Don't get me wrong, it's a horrible video and it was a tragic mistake but it's a war zone and things like this will happen. Do you let your comrades walk into an ambush or do you shoot up the people setting it up and accept there might be an error on your part? I can't say what I would do in their position, but I think I'd have opened fire as well. You can't take chances.

[spider]

I'm sure if the Nazi's had invaded England in WW2 they would have used the same sort of justification!

[one eyed jack]

I watched the full 17 minute video too Ned and dont agree with what you say about the "looks like a rpg on their shoulder" and skulking around corners.

yes you are right, they are in a warzone but maybe the pilots with the "eye in the sky" should have made sure instead of making it up to get clearance from base to fire on innocent people.

If there was one gun shot or something like that then I would say they had it coming to them and agree with you but I saw nothing of the sort, assuming we saw the same 17 minute video.

I could buy it being human error being under pressure and not wanting fellow soldiers killed but the way the guy was going on he was keen to shoot him up some "rag heads" because he was bloody bored flying that chopper and not seeing any action.

Now that wouldnt surprise me in the least. Nor would it surprise me with anyone piloting a piece of miltary machine worth millions. Im sure they are keen to put it through its paces and get back to base and brag to his mates how good it felt.

I guess your comments also justify 9/11 too. This is the same thinking that went on with the pilots that flew the plane into the WTC no doubt.

[Ogre]

Also something that was kind of neglected in the news the same week this one happened, a US patrol in Afghanistan shot a few farmers and two pregnant women. Apparently this unfortunate group of 5 people showed hostile intent by being armed.

I don't know about you guys, but if I were a citizen of Afghanistan living in the countryside, I'd very much like to be armed, thank you.

Truth is (and this is not a pretty truth), both US lead wars are barbaric, they've been instigated by cowards, and everyone participating in these wars, regardless of nationality, are evil people with little regard to human life.

[spider]

Strange isn?t it.

For years the Yanks went on about the British ?occupation? of Ireland and the abuse of Irish human rights in NI.

I can?t ever remember though an instance of the British Army shooting children from helicopter gunships in Belfast.

They pull stunts like this and then wonder why Muslims want to kill them.

If that had been my kids they had shot I?d be thinking about picking up a gun

[jimslip]

You said:
"They pull stunts like this and then wonder why Muslims want to kill them.
If that had been my kids they had shot I?d be thinking about picking up a gun"

That's why they lost the Vietnam war, the Yanks always make the people they are "liberating" hate them.