clegg,what happened to taxing the rich?
Re: Compromise
He could have actually stuck to his principles(although now we know he doesnt have any) and let the tories govern as a minority,that way we could have had another election by next year and a fe months of tory govt would have seen labour returned to power with a new leader
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David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re Compromise
"You don't have to agree with the coalition, David"
Thank you, Sam for that dispensation. Not papal, I know, but appreciated all the same.
"but blaming Clegg for everything two whole parties jointly agree and compromise on is childish."
Please point out to me where in this thread I have "blamed Clegg for everything". If you are going to call me childish, please try to base the observation on something I have stated in the thread.
I have used the term, shared blame. Given that both Conservatives and Lib Dems have signed up to the contents of the coalition agreement, I would have thought this description was beyond question. I am quite happy to use the term, shared success for those points that appear good ideas, like getting rid of id cards.
You state that "I don't like the cuts as they are and I wasn't defending Clegg. I'm just not blaming Clegg either".
See point above. re. shared blame. Just to make it clear I am talking about the cuts "you don't like and aren't defending".
By the way, please do not demean yourself as Vince Cable and Cleggie have done by trotting out their rehearsed argument which goes
"I don?t think anybody could have anticipated then quite how sharply the economic conditions in the eurozone would have deteriorated and that the need to show that we are trying to get to grips with this suddenly became much greater,? the Liberal Democrat leader said. Just a reminder by the way it is 18 days or so since the election, not six months.
Cleggie has already made a complete idiot of himself by using a fiscal crisis in the euro (joining the euro was Britain's way to financial stability according to Cleggie last year) to backtrack on his opposition to the timing of the cuts. Facts do not back up this argument. The latest reports show that the UK's fiscal position is better than Alistair Darling's forecast by billions and confidence in gilts has improved during the euro crisis as the markets have sought safer havens than Greece and Portugal etc.
So embarrassing for Cleggie and Cable to have to say re. the timing of the cuts "The Tories were right pre-election and we were shite"
And as for poor Vince - ?836 million cuts at his department which he wanted to abolish prior to the election because it had been stripped of most of its powers.
Can it get worse for the Lib Dems? I suspect it can.
Good night
David
Thank you, Sam for that dispensation. Not papal, I know, but appreciated all the same.
"but blaming Clegg for everything two whole parties jointly agree and compromise on is childish."
Please point out to me where in this thread I have "blamed Clegg for everything". If you are going to call me childish, please try to base the observation on something I have stated in the thread.
I have used the term, shared blame. Given that both Conservatives and Lib Dems have signed up to the contents of the coalition agreement, I would have thought this description was beyond question. I am quite happy to use the term, shared success for those points that appear good ideas, like getting rid of id cards.
You state that "I don't like the cuts as they are and I wasn't defending Clegg. I'm just not blaming Clegg either".
See point above. re. shared blame. Just to make it clear I am talking about the cuts "you don't like and aren't defending".
By the way, please do not demean yourself as Vince Cable and Cleggie have done by trotting out their rehearsed argument which goes
"I don?t think anybody could have anticipated then quite how sharply the economic conditions in the eurozone would have deteriorated and that the need to show that we are trying to get to grips with this suddenly became much greater,? the Liberal Democrat leader said. Just a reminder by the way it is 18 days or so since the election, not six months.
Cleggie has already made a complete idiot of himself by using a fiscal crisis in the euro (joining the euro was Britain's way to financial stability according to Cleggie last year) to backtrack on his opposition to the timing of the cuts. Facts do not back up this argument. The latest reports show that the UK's fiscal position is better than Alistair Darling's forecast by billions and confidence in gilts has improved during the euro crisis as the markets have sought safer havens than Greece and Portugal etc.
So embarrassing for Cleggie and Cable to have to say re. the timing of the cuts "The Tories were right pre-election and we were shite"
And as for poor Vince - ?836 million cuts at his department which he wanted to abolish prior to the election because it had been stripped of most of its powers.
Can it get worse for the Lib Dems? I suspect it can.
Good night
David
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Sam Slater
- Posts: 11624
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Compromise
And Labour could have formed a coalition with the Lib Dems but decided against it for their party's sake. We've been through all this before.
It's bollocks to assume Labour would have been returned into power had we let the Tories form a minority government for a little while. It's just as likely they might have scraped a majority second time around as well. Much of the population (rightly or wrongly) didn't like Brown and a Labour party busy trying to find a new leader, and thus new policies and a slightly different philosophy, might put many people off during the current economic situation.
And as for Clegg not saying he'd form a coalition with the Tories running up to the election: he DID say that whatever the outcome all parties should come together to sort out the current problems and he said it in every one of the debates. He also said more than once that the party with the most votes should have the first chance to form a coalition, if we had a hung parliament.
Millions in Europe would see this coalition as par for the course. It's only us Brits that don't seem to have the nous to understand what a coalition means.
Clegg alone doesn't even decide Lib Dem policies, never mind the policies of the Conservatives. It's childish to scream out his name every time something crops up you don't agree with, or find hard to swallow. It was the same with many others who blamed Brown over every little thing that stuck in their throat (and they had more cause to since he was running the damn country, and had been chancellor previous to that!).
David was on the verge of blaming the holocaust on Nick Clegg for christ's sake! Get a grip! !laugh!
It's bollocks to assume Labour would have been returned into power had we let the Tories form a minority government for a little while. It's just as likely they might have scraped a majority second time around as well. Much of the population (rightly or wrongly) didn't like Brown and a Labour party busy trying to find a new leader, and thus new policies and a slightly different philosophy, might put many people off during the current economic situation.
And as for Clegg not saying he'd form a coalition with the Tories running up to the election: he DID say that whatever the outcome all parties should come together to sort out the current problems and he said it in every one of the debates. He also said more than once that the party with the most votes should have the first chance to form a coalition, if we had a hung parliament.
Millions in Europe would see this coalition as par for the course. It's only us Brits that don't seem to have the nous to understand what a coalition means.
Clegg alone doesn't even decide Lib Dem policies, never mind the policies of the Conservatives. It's childish to scream out his name every time something crops up you don't agree with, or find hard to swallow. It was the same with many others who blamed Brown over every little thing that stuck in their throat (and they had more cause to since he was running the damn country, and had been chancellor previous to that!).
David was on the verge of blaming the holocaust on Nick Clegg for christ's sake! Get a grip! !laugh!
[i]I used to spend a lot of time criticizing Islam on here in the noughties - but things are much better now.[/i]
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David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Sam
"David was on the verge of blaming the holocaust on Nick Clegg for christ's sake! Get a grip!"
Please point out where I stated this. If not, an apology would be appropriate.
"Clegg alone doesn't even decide Lib Dem policies, never mind the policies of the Conservatives. It's childish to scream out his name every time something crops up you don't agree with, or find hard to swallow."
Clegg is the leader of the Lib Dems and therefore, justifiably shares blame in a coalition government for the failures, traumas and shares success for any good things that happen.
I suggest you use the Internet to understand the detail of the coalition agreement and the role of cabinet responsibility in supporting those coalition measures where an abstainment is not allowed.
Please do not demean this discussion with the frequent use of the word "childish" often as a comment made in reaction to something you allege I have said which I have not.
D
Please point out where I stated this. If not, an apology would be appropriate.
"Clegg alone doesn't even decide Lib Dem policies, never mind the policies of the Conservatives. It's childish to scream out his name every time something crops up you don't agree with, or find hard to swallow."
Clegg is the leader of the Lib Dems and therefore, justifiably shares blame in a coalition government for the failures, traumas and shares success for any good things that happen.
I suggest you use the Internet to understand the detail of the coalition agreement and the role of cabinet responsibility in supporting those coalition measures where an abstainment is not allowed.
Please do not demean this discussion with the frequent use of the word "childish" often as a comment made in reaction to something you allege I have said which I have not.
D
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Sam Slater
- Posts: 11624
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Sam
[quote]"David was on the verge of blaming the holocaust on Nick Clegg for christ's sake! Get a grip!"
Please point out where I stated this. If not, an apology would be appropriate.[/quote]
Oh, please, David. You seemed to compare compromises in policy between the Conservatives and the Lib Dems to compromising with monomaniacal, megalomaniacal murderers. I was taking the piss, obviously, because you were either joking yourself or you'd completely lost the plot.
[quote]Clegg is the leader of the Lib Dems and therefore, justifiably shares blame in a coalition government for the failures, traumas and shares success for any good things that happen.
I suggest you use the Internet to understand the detail of the coalition agreement and the role of cabinet responsibility in supporting those coalition measures where an abstainment is not allowed.[/quote]
Did I say he shouldn't share blame? I said he alone shouldn't be blamed and started by pointing out that not every policy during a coalition government is up to Clegg. I'm not saying you blame him solely but you do seem to concentrate 99% of your criticisms of this coalition on him alone. That, in my opinion, is childish. I suggest you come up come up with more adult-like tactics in criticising things about the coalition you don't like...if you want to be taken seriously.
[quote]Please do not demean this discussion with the frequent use of the word "childish" often as a comment made in reaction to something you allege I have said which I have not.[/quote]
Demean this discussion? Me? Ha! You're the one bringing up evil dictators that killed millions to try and make a point. Remember that.
Please point out where I stated this. If not, an apology would be appropriate.[/quote]
Oh, please, David. You seemed to compare compromises in policy between the Conservatives and the Lib Dems to compromising with monomaniacal, megalomaniacal murderers. I was taking the piss, obviously, because you were either joking yourself or you'd completely lost the plot.
[quote]Clegg is the leader of the Lib Dems and therefore, justifiably shares blame in a coalition government for the failures, traumas and shares success for any good things that happen.
I suggest you use the Internet to understand the detail of the coalition agreement and the role of cabinet responsibility in supporting those coalition measures where an abstainment is not allowed.[/quote]
Did I say he shouldn't share blame? I said he alone shouldn't be blamed and started by pointing out that not every policy during a coalition government is up to Clegg. I'm not saying you blame him solely but you do seem to concentrate 99% of your criticisms of this coalition on him alone. That, in my opinion, is childish. I suggest you come up come up with more adult-like tactics in criticising things about the coalition you don't like...if you want to be taken seriously.
[quote]Please do not demean this discussion with the frequent use of the word "childish" often as a comment made in reaction to something you allege I have said which I have not.[/quote]
Demean this discussion? Me? Ha! You're the one bringing up evil dictators that killed millions to try and make a point. Remember that.
[i]I used to spend a lot of time criticizing Islam on here in the noughties - but things are much better now.[/i]
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David Johnson
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- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Sam
Ok to summarise your views.
You do not agree with the cuts. You do not defend them. Clegg shares the blame for them. But we must not be too unkind to Nick by picking on him, because it is childish. It's also the fault of those nasty Tories who the Lib Dems have formed a coalition with. I would rather eat my face than vote for those nasty Tories. I really like Nick though which is why I put one of his quotes in my signature for every message.
Alright then. Fair enough.
D
?The interesting thing I have discovered over the last week is that we have been using different words but we mean similar things. What I call liberalism David Cameron calls the Big Society." Nick Clegg and I don't think he was joking!
You do not agree with the cuts. You do not defend them. Clegg shares the blame for them. But we must not be too unkind to Nick by picking on him, because it is childish. It's also the fault of those nasty Tories who the Lib Dems have formed a coalition with. I would rather eat my face than vote for those nasty Tories. I really like Nick though which is why I put one of his quotes in my signature for every message.
Alright then. Fair enough.
D
?The interesting thing I have discovered over the last week is that we have been using different words but we mean similar things. What I call liberalism David Cameron calls the Big Society." Nick Clegg and I don't think he was joking!
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Sam Slater
- Posts: 11624
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Re Compromise
[quote]"but blaming Clegg for everything two whole parties jointly agree and compromise on is childish."
Please point out to me where in this thread I have "blamed Clegg for everything". If you are going to call me childish, please try to base the observation on something I have stated in the thread.[/quote]
I never claimed you blamed Clegg for everything either, did I? I was talking generally about your attitude. 99% of all your angst and anger has been concentrated on one man....and it's not just you. That is childish.
[quote]I have used the term, shared blame.[/quote]
And I've not argued against that. It's nice of you to be so fair-minded! Maybe you can find a right-wing magistrate to label him 'absolute scum'.
[quote]By the way, please do not demean yourself as Vince Cable and Cleggie have done by trotting out their rehearsed argument which goes
"I don?t think anybody could have anticipated then quite how sharply the economic conditions in the eurozone would have deteriorated and that the need to show that we are trying to get to grips with this suddenly became much greater,? the Liberal Democrat leader said. Just a reminder by the way it is 18 days or so since the election, not six months.[/quote]
I won't. Please don't embarrass yourself any further by blaming Clegg for the Greece crisis too. After your Hitler and Stalin point I fear anything's possible.
[quote]Cleggie has already made a complete idiot of himself by using a fiscal crisis in the euro (joining the euro was Britain's way to financial stability according to Cleggie last year) to backtrack on his opposition to the timing of the cuts.[/quote]
I don't see what this has to do with what we were discussing (that blaming Clegg for the extinction of the Dinosaurs is childish).
What I will say, though, is that I too think that Britain's long-term interests lies within the eurozone. Obviously we're not going to go down that road in the next 5 years. Any backtracking due to current climates doesn't make Clegg an idiot, it makes him pragmatic. Of course, what we think of Clegg on this are just opinions, not facts.
[quote]So embarrassing for Cleggie and Cable to have to say re. the timing of the cuts "The Tories were right pre-election and we were shite" [/quote]
They said this? Please show me articles, thanks.
[quote]Can it get worse for the Lib Dems? I suspect it can.[/quote]
I suspect so too. I mean, if the Labour party can lose over 2 million voters, 94 seats and 2 leaders over 5 years then the Lib Dems better watch out.
Please point out to me where in this thread I have "blamed Clegg for everything". If you are going to call me childish, please try to base the observation on something I have stated in the thread.[/quote]
I never claimed you blamed Clegg for everything either, did I? I was talking generally about your attitude. 99% of all your angst and anger has been concentrated on one man....and it's not just you. That is childish.
[quote]I have used the term, shared blame.[/quote]
And I've not argued against that. It's nice of you to be so fair-minded! Maybe you can find a right-wing magistrate to label him 'absolute scum'.
[quote]By the way, please do not demean yourself as Vince Cable and Cleggie have done by trotting out their rehearsed argument which goes
"I don?t think anybody could have anticipated then quite how sharply the economic conditions in the eurozone would have deteriorated and that the need to show that we are trying to get to grips with this suddenly became much greater,? the Liberal Democrat leader said. Just a reminder by the way it is 18 days or so since the election, not six months.[/quote]
I won't. Please don't embarrass yourself any further by blaming Clegg for the Greece crisis too. After your Hitler and Stalin point I fear anything's possible.
[quote]Cleggie has already made a complete idiot of himself by using a fiscal crisis in the euro (joining the euro was Britain's way to financial stability according to Cleggie last year) to backtrack on his opposition to the timing of the cuts.[/quote]
I don't see what this has to do with what we were discussing (that blaming Clegg for the extinction of the Dinosaurs is childish).
What I will say, though, is that I too think that Britain's long-term interests lies within the eurozone. Obviously we're not going to go down that road in the next 5 years. Any backtracking due to current climates doesn't make Clegg an idiot, it makes him pragmatic. Of course, what we think of Clegg on this are just opinions, not facts.
[quote]So embarrassing for Cleggie and Cable to have to say re. the timing of the cuts "The Tories were right pre-election and we were shite" [/quote]
They said this? Please show me articles, thanks.
[quote]Can it get worse for the Lib Dems? I suspect it can.[/quote]
I suspect so too. I mean, if the Labour party can lose over 2 million voters, 94 seats and 2 leaders over 5 years then the Lib Dems better watch out.
[i]I used to spend a lot of time criticizing Islam on here in the noughties - but things are much better now.[/i]
Re: Sam
I see the pompous cunt has been given a deputy PM's question time once a month. How fucking irrelevant is that? First question - Could the DPM tell me how tasty the Prime Minister's arsehole is this morning? Answer - It's lovely.
All subsequent questions responded to with, "I refer the honourable member to the reply I gave some moments ago"
All subsequent questions responded to with, "I refer the honourable member to the reply I gave some moments ago"
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David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Sam, Sam
You say in this message
I never claimed you blamed Clegg for everything either, did I? I was talking generally about your attitude. 99% of all your angst and anger has been concentrated on one man....and it's not just you.
Earlier you replied
"You don't have to agree with the coalition, David, but blaming Clegg for everything two whole parties jointly agree and compromise on is childish. I've argued many on here who just attacked Brown just for the sake of it. It seems you're just as bad!"
Err, how else would you interprete the above paragraph?
D
"First the Lib Dems renege on their flagship policy to fight against fees and now the opportunity of a university education is being restricted" Sally Hunt, general secretary of the University and COllege Union.
I never claimed you blamed Clegg for everything either, did I? I was talking generally about your attitude. 99% of all your angst and anger has been concentrated on one man....and it's not just you.
Earlier you replied
"You don't have to agree with the coalition, David, but blaming Clegg for everything two whole parties jointly agree and compromise on is childish. I've argued many on here who just attacked Brown just for the sake of it. It seems you're just as bad!"
Err, how else would you interprete the above paragraph?
D
"First the Lib Dems renege on their flagship policy to fight against fees and now the opportunity of a university education is being restricted" Sally Hunt, general secretary of the University and COllege Union.