Well said Caractacus.
I watch the games wishing I had a mute button for the fatuous commentaries.
The media networks have a lot to answer for in stirring 'The paranoia germ that's in our water' It seems to be nestling in the nether regions of mass media and growing quite nicely thank you!
After all it makes news and sells lots of papers... ??????...yipeee!
Rosenthal is primarily a soccer 'pundit' who knows nothing about Rugby. Don't forget the best commentator ever was a Scot, Bill McLaren CBE. The epitome of fair minded and unbiased reporting.
So don't knock the game, knock the pundits.
When was the last time there was any crowd trouble/violence caused by rugby union spectators? despite the jingoistic hype of the current media pundits.
Whats more, have you noticed the spectators at the matches, quite happily watching the game while quaffing copious ammounts of ale!
When was the last time you saw that at a soccer match anywhere in Britain?
All soccer players should be forced to watch these matches and maybe they'd learn about respect for their fellow professionals and the referees.
No playacting or handbags at ten paces with these guys!
Just full on commitment trying to win.
English Football/Rugby
Re: English Football/Rugby
Caractacus wrote:
> It is this very point that is often ignored. Too often a
> networked show being sent to all four corners of the UK is
> treated as a clubroom for English supporters.
no argument with that - if such is the case, it's ill-mannered and inexcusable.
> When the
> commentators or reporters do remember the British aspect it
> tends to be in negative situations: "British fans ran riot
> through the streets of wherever today hours ahead of England's
> game against . . . "
surely, it's more than a media pundit's career is worth to risk conflating english yobbos with the goodwill ambassadors that comprise the ranks of scottish and welsh supporters? i'll keep an ear out for any such indiscretions during portugal next year. no doubt there'll be plenty of opportunities...
> And maybe it's the paranoia germ that's in
> our water, but I'm sure an athlete having success is referred
> to (though not in recent years; our sport is even worse than
> our football at the moment) as British if they win, and
> Scottish if they don't. Strange.
i've heard this point made before but my own experience of media reporting is that reverse is true: i.e. when a scottish or welsh sportsman/woman triumphs in their chosen field, they are invariably referred to as scottish or welsh long before there's any mention, if at all, of their being british. in contrast, an englishman/woman is nearly always referred to as british with the dread 'english' word never being uttered.
athletes such as colin jackson and liz mccolgan have never been inhibited, as an english athlete would be, about stating that their prime source of patriotic pride is derived from representing the peoples of scotland or wales. i don't have a problem with that at all - expressions of heartfelt patriotism, undistorted by prejudice or rancour are, or should be, a normal, healthy part of any citizens life - but there's the rub! because this form of self expression has never been readily available to the english in the same way, stifled as it has been by the majority shareholder's political duty of, first and foremost, acknowledging britishness over the more 'parochial' identity.
none of this is reflective of mutual antipathy between individual scots/welsh/english, imo but is more reflective of the unsatisfactory political settlement we currently abide by. this was in part addressed by the constitutional rejig which lead to the setting up of the scottish parliament and the welsh assembly but it also created new problems. for instance, the west lothian question: recently, an important parliamentary vote on nhs policy affecting england and wales - not scotland - was passed but only because scottish members of parliament (not msp's) voted with the british governement. this inspite of there being enough english and welsh mp's voting against or abstaining from the vote, for the bill to fail. under the current constitution, scottish nhs policy is determined solely by the scottish parliament, with no input whatsoever from members sitting in the place down south. this sort of imbalance is no more tolerable than the crap scotland had to put up with for years from being the de facto social laboratory for the rest of the country - the poll tax springs to mind.
i wouldn't blame you or any scottish or welsh person for being fed up with all, or at least many, things english - in your shoes i'd probably feel the same way - but until scotland, wales and england become sovereign states, imbued with separate institutions, permitting the full and proper expression of their diverse political, cultural, media, etc, sensibilities (except, perhaps, where it suits them by common assent to maintain existing cross-border arrangements) there will remain the unavoidable fact that the english will continue to rub many celts up the wrong way, whether through thoughtlessness or sheer weight of numbers. breaking up the union makes all the more sense given the existence of the eu. both scotland and wales probably stand to gain more than england, given the protective nature of many eu dispensations towards the smaller nations, but i'm positive all three would benefit greatly from finally being able to be themselves, unrefracted through the dull prism of britishness.
(and before some clever dick points it out, i'm aware of the irony of my commenting about the waning appeal of british identity being, as i am, the moderator of a site called 'the british girls adult film database'. hopefully, the welsh, scottish & english parliaments would designate bgafd as one of those 'cross-border' institutions worth of retention)
i agree with your point that nationalism is an illness, not least because it implies a repellent notion of superiority over others merely by dint of one's place of birth - an absurd conceit. patriotism, however, is a different kettle of fish, affording people a means of expressing their love of country, without excluding in the process, a profound appreciation of the rest of the worlds peoples/cultures in all their astonishing diversity.
finally, and at the risk of being thought contrary, i have a problem with the english celebrating st. georges day: he's a rubbish saint, adopted for no good reason that i know of, and i'd much rather we turned the same day (april 23rd) into a celebration of something that holds genuine resonance as an expression of national pride: shakespeare's birthday (and death day, too). phew! sorry to go on at such length and if i've descended into rambling, incoherent gibberish that's in part because i haven't read it back properly and visitors are due any minute. i hope it's obvious that this isn't in any way anti-anyone but pro-everyone. as a bgafd moderator i'm far too pc for any negative nonsense.
> It is this very point that is often ignored. Too often a
> networked show being sent to all four corners of the UK is
> treated as a clubroom for English supporters.
no argument with that - if such is the case, it's ill-mannered and inexcusable.
> When the
> commentators or reporters do remember the British aspect it
> tends to be in negative situations: "British fans ran riot
> through the streets of wherever today hours ahead of England's
> game against . . . "
surely, it's more than a media pundit's career is worth to risk conflating english yobbos with the goodwill ambassadors that comprise the ranks of scottish and welsh supporters? i'll keep an ear out for any such indiscretions during portugal next year. no doubt there'll be plenty of opportunities...
> And maybe it's the paranoia germ that's in
> our water, but I'm sure an athlete having success is referred
> to (though not in recent years; our sport is even worse than
> our football at the moment) as British if they win, and
> Scottish if they don't. Strange.
i've heard this point made before but my own experience of media reporting is that reverse is true: i.e. when a scottish or welsh sportsman/woman triumphs in their chosen field, they are invariably referred to as scottish or welsh long before there's any mention, if at all, of their being british. in contrast, an englishman/woman is nearly always referred to as british with the dread 'english' word never being uttered.
athletes such as colin jackson and liz mccolgan have never been inhibited, as an english athlete would be, about stating that their prime source of patriotic pride is derived from representing the peoples of scotland or wales. i don't have a problem with that at all - expressions of heartfelt patriotism, undistorted by prejudice or rancour are, or should be, a normal, healthy part of any citizens life - but there's the rub! because this form of self expression has never been readily available to the english in the same way, stifled as it has been by the majority shareholder's political duty of, first and foremost, acknowledging britishness over the more 'parochial' identity.
none of this is reflective of mutual antipathy between individual scots/welsh/english, imo but is more reflective of the unsatisfactory political settlement we currently abide by. this was in part addressed by the constitutional rejig which lead to the setting up of the scottish parliament and the welsh assembly but it also created new problems. for instance, the west lothian question: recently, an important parliamentary vote on nhs policy affecting england and wales - not scotland - was passed but only because scottish members of parliament (not msp's) voted with the british governement. this inspite of there being enough english and welsh mp's voting against or abstaining from the vote, for the bill to fail. under the current constitution, scottish nhs policy is determined solely by the scottish parliament, with no input whatsoever from members sitting in the place down south. this sort of imbalance is no more tolerable than the crap scotland had to put up with for years from being the de facto social laboratory for the rest of the country - the poll tax springs to mind.
i wouldn't blame you or any scottish or welsh person for being fed up with all, or at least many, things english - in your shoes i'd probably feel the same way - but until scotland, wales and england become sovereign states, imbued with separate institutions, permitting the full and proper expression of their diverse political, cultural, media, etc, sensibilities (except, perhaps, where it suits them by common assent to maintain existing cross-border arrangements) there will remain the unavoidable fact that the english will continue to rub many celts up the wrong way, whether through thoughtlessness or sheer weight of numbers. breaking up the union makes all the more sense given the existence of the eu. both scotland and wales probably stand to gain more than england, given the protective nature of many eu dispensations towards the smaller nations, but i'm positive all three would benefit greatly from finally being able to be themselves, unrefracted through the dull prism of britishness.
(and before some clever dick points it out, i'm aware of the irony of my commenting about the waning appeal of british identity being, as i am, the moderator of a site called 'the british girls adult film database'. hopefully, the welsh, scottish & english parliaments would designate bgafd as one of those 'cross-border' institutions worth of retention)
i agree with your point that nationalism is an illness, not least because it implies a repellent notion of superiority over others merely by dint of one's place of birth - an absurd conceit. patriotism, however, is a different kettle of fish, affording people a means of expressing their love of country, without excluding in the process, a profound appreciation of the rest of the worlds peoples/cultures in all their astonishing diversity.
finally, and at the risk of being thought contrary, i have a problem with the english celebrating st. georges day: he's a rubbish saint, adopted for no good reason that i know of, and i'd much rather we turned the same day (april 23rd) into a celebration of something that holds genuine resonance as an expression of national pride: shakespeare's birthday (and death day, too). phew! sorry to go on at such length and if i've descended into rambling, incoherent gibberish that's in part because i haven't read it back properly and visitors are due any minute. i hope it's obvious that this isn't in any way anti-anyone but pro-everyone. as a bgafd moderator i'm far too pc for any negative nonsense.
Re: English Football/Rugby
A well-reasoned argument and I agree with a lot of what you say (I didn't want to risk a lynching by rubbishing St George). In many ways, though, Britain is stronger when together than when pulling at each other in conflict. A fully independent Scotland (or independence in Europe, even, as advocated by the SNP) would just shift the resentment: west v east, highland and lowland re central belt, rural v urban. The fault lines already exist; they'd become more obvious within days of independence.
I am proud of being Scottish and of being British. Patriotism is a personal emotion, but can make one feel part of a community. It should never be used for political gain.
As for BGAFD---it's undoubtedly the best of British.
(Sorry if this isn't coherent, I'm not long awake!)
I am proud of being Scottish and of being British. Patriotism is a personal emotion, but can make one feel part of a community. It should never be used for political gain.
As for BGAFD---it's undoubtedly the best of British.
(Sorry if this isn't coherent, I'm not long awake!)
Pervert
The Worlds Biggest Collector Of Ben Dover DVD`s
Koppite Till I Die
Remember - You`ll Never Walk Alone
The Worlds Biggest Collector Of Ben Dover DVD`s
Koppite Till I Die
Remember - You`ll Never Walk Alone