egafd.com

Oh dear dude, now you're just splitting hairs because you don't like the political flavour of the simple, obvious, and bottom line answer to David's question. You know I'm right and I realise how irritating it must be when someone pops up and points that kind of thing out - I guess in other areas of social intercourse you hang out with like-minded people (possibly with unrealistic airy-fairy ideas about the goodness, worth and nature of humanity) who might be able to do big sums, have a degree in some kind of 'ology' and are able to point to Washington on a map of the world. So, maybe you don't get many awkward dissenting voices in your other social circles?

Look, every kid resents the big kid with the big brains, the big wedge, the fastest car, and the posse of gorgeous adoring dollies. It's human nature. Let's be honest, we've all experienced that sensation at some time or other. If you'll excuse me for oversimplifying things again, this is precisely what is going on here with all this America bashing. Smaller, crapper, countries are feeling inferior to the flash jack the lad landing his spaceship on the moon, flashing his cash, living the consumer life of riley, effortlessly stepping in on other kids territory to break fights up. It makes smaller, crapper, counties who aren?t capable of any of that feel, well, crap. But of course they come out with all sorts of intellectual, socio-political bollocks to try and make it sound like there is a really serious grown-up reason for their opposition, when the bottom line is their just jealous and resent the brash success of he States.

Now, let's be realistic. Who wouldn't, were they given the choice, be the big, rich, successful kid (or his best pal) as opposed to the scruffy, snivelling, little resentful kid? So, let's leave out the social-concern posturing and be thankful that we are in a position of comfort and privilege. Let's thumb our noses at those dour hand wringing European intellectuals. They're right snooty boring bastards. They don't know how o have a good time. And similarly, let's be a lot more critical of the disorganised, irrational, mobs and rabble that make up most of the third world. They're crap (though the threat they pose to world order should not be underestimated.)

There are lots of naff things about America (the religious right, and the middleclass university educated political correctness fascists, for instance) But on the whole, I recon it's pretty firkin' groovy.

Regarding standing up for ourselves. Apart from America there are very, very, few nations that can project military power across the globe. Britain is one of them, and we have all seen that should anyone take the international piss (like General Galtieri for instance) Britain is not averse to unilaterally chinning the fuckers and 'smartening them up.'


Officer D ? Now he's off for his tea!

It must get pretty boring to be always right.

Mart

Yeah, but it's a monotony I can put up with Mart. Although having said that it's not unknown that on (rare) occasion I have been in the uncomfortable position of finding I have my facts wrong - In which instance I always stick my hand up with good grace and defer to those with more up-to-date information.

Officer D - Back from his tea.

You are right. The Prime Minister at the time, Harold Wilson turned down a request from LBJ to send British troops. Wilson rightly assumed that to do so would have caused too many problems at home. He was right, Britain was politically unstable at the time and the American involvement caused enough problems anyway. This would have been much worse had we been involved directly. As a matter of interest, what's the view in Aus & NZ thirty odd years later?

Nice speech - but you've failed to come up with any actual reasons why a policy of backing the US 100% is good for Britain.

Does our support mean that they'll be buying our beef and steel now? Will they allow their media and utility companies to be owned by British interests, but still prevent any other foreign ownership? Will it mean that they will back us up in whatever foreign policy we come up with?

Be an ally of America by all means - in the same way that France and Germany are. But slavish adoration of the school bully is only likely to make you despised by the rest of the school and the bully will treat you with contempt.

"Let's thumb our noses at those dour hand wringing European intellectuals. They're right snooty boring bastards. They don't know how to have a good time."

Good one - if only they could learn the culture of binge drinking and hooliganism they'd all be so much happier.

Not suggesting that we should back the US 100% on whatever whims and fancies take it. In all good pal relationships you can always say to your bigger pal "Hold on, do you really think that's the best way to go about it" without the risk of derision, or even a kicking.

Our support does not automatically confer guaranteed contracts on us (and nor should it) But it does mean that when contracts are being dished out Britain's bids will be looked at much more carefully and receptively than at other less supportive nations. There will be a sense of wanting to give it to the UK, if it can be commercially justified. I don't know about letting us own US media interests, but if it came to pass that they did relent on that front I have no doubt that we would be in pole position. And I'm sure they would back us on our foreign policy if it did not clash with bigger US foreign policy. You can't expect then to tailor their foreign policy to the whims of Claire Short and the like.

I'm no champion of the vacuous pop-culture and yob/idiot drinking culture. In fact, I detest all that Big Brother, Crap film, Crap music, Pop-Tart, Faleraki shit. It's totally brainless and vacuous and it's naff lowest common denominator influence is now the dominant factor in most porno. No, what I was getting at in my attack on the pompous Eurocrat intellectuals is the turning of their noses up at basic pleasures like shagging, drinking, smoking, making money and spending it ostentatiously and irresponsibly. I like to do all these things now and again (in moderation.) It may not always be socially responsible, but it?s nice to say ?Hey, what the fuck?? from tine to time, free of any pretentious social guilt and the desire to justify oneself by coming up with all sorts of bureaucratic, pseudo-intellectual bollocks as to why we should all be much more dour and hand wringing. But even I recoil in horror at the image of the shrieking drunken slappa staggering and spewing her way down the street in Falkerki. Those types of people are idiots encouraged by the tabloid press and are brainlessly abusing the social freedoms that were won for them in the mid sixties. I recon we should all be turning our noses up at both them and the tabloid press.

Officer D

It's called NATO: North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. signed after WW2......ostensibly to stop megolamaniacs invading smaller weaker countries: Like Russia in Czechoslovakia '68: The United States: Chile '69, Grenada ......well you get the picture.

And basically because the western world is run by WASPs.........apart from a couple of Catholics who don't wield much power

Deuce may know more than me but I think it was very controversial because, unlike previous wars, conscription was used to raise the necessary forces. Both NZ and Oz pulled out before the end.
NZ didn't take part in the Iraq invasion but there are troops there now involved in reconstruction. That's controversial because it can be argued that they are substituting for invasion forcces who could be doing the same thing.

Mart

"But it does mean that when contracts are being dished out Britain's bids will be looked at much more carefully and receptively than at other less supportive nations."

Any examples of this actually happening?

So far you've managed to say that we should be America's bestest friend in the whole world simply because they're the biggest. If you can come up with some actual concrete examples of how we gain from our relationship with the United States to a greater extent that other Western European or similar countries do then the discussion can go somewhere rather than revolving around generalisations

As other posters have said - Australia hepled the US in Vietnam, we didn't. Is there any evidence that Australia gained benefits from this assistance that we missed out on?

As far as I can see, there is no reason why our relationship with America should be any closer than our relationships with Holland, New Zealand etc etc - or any closer than those countries relationships with the US.

I no bugger all about Vietnam...born 1966...passed me by...they never taught it in school at all apart from a general over view which was your general bollocks...justified war to keep the communists in their place

Judging by the reception that the Vietnam vets received when they returned
(Spat on in the street etc and generally treated like lepers) you'd say the feeling of the day was one of anti-war

Hard to say wether it was at the beginning of the war or wether it was after conscription was introduced that the anti-war movement started to gain
the upper hand

I'd expect all the anti-war stuff going on in America by high profile Celebs had a big bearing on it as well

cheers
B....OZ