Attn marcusallen & alec
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EC
Re: Attn marcusallen & alec
Are softcore erotic films not included in this database (and I don't mean soft cuts of obviously harder films, I mean the type of erotic films shown on Channel 5, as there are British girls plying their trade in these types of movies in America all the time).
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alec
Re: Attn marcusallen & alec
There may be a few exceptions for complicated reasons to do with the way the database originated, but we don't list softcore films of the type you mention. This is mainly because it is too much work and we have to draw the line somewhere. Cross-over actresses are rare, even rarer now than they were in the 70s; so the amount of work would increase dramatically.
I forgot to watch the Ron Jeremay programme, but the decline in erotic films certainly had something to do with video. Flint discusses this in his book Babylon Blue. He does point to a revival in the late 80s and early 90s, but then gonzo killed that off, e.g. John Leslie, who made some of the best erotic films at about that time, went gonzo.. He also points out that using 35 mm survived as a practice in Italy - and this is the one place still making reasonably erotic films - the late Joe d'Amato, Mario Salieri, Alex Perry.
I hope those in the industry will excuse the following speculation if it's mistaken in any respects, but my analysis goes something like this. With camcorders and the acceptability of gonzo, the world and his brother can make a porn video - not a good porn video, but certainly a video which shows people having sex. This dramatically increases the supply and many punters will just buy anything that shows people having hard core sex and many retailers are equally indiscrinate in what they sell - for indiscriminate sometimes read ignorant. Competition is thus on the basis of price as you can shoot a gonzo scene in half a day (not necessarily well, I hasten to add). There's also so much being produced that any one ordinary video can't sell a huge number. Therefore the producer has to get round this by making more videos. It therefore becomes an assembly line where the producer just goes through the motions (pun intended as, unfortunately, in some cases they get the performers to actually do this). To adapt Henry Ford, you can have any type of porn provided it's wall-to-wall - I wouldn't even dignify most of the American production-line stuff with the name gonzo.
Thus very few people can afford to spend the money and the time (and time equals money) that is required to make an erotic hard core FEATURE film. It's not just the cost of costumes, sets, stop-start filming, attention to continuity etc.- the things that people often think of when they talk about high production values - but the time taken to come up with a good script, plan how it will be filmed, get the actors and crew together etc. They wouldn't make a profit on the investment.
Of course the other thing you need to make such a film is talent. Someone made a point in a similar thread a couple of weeks back in relation to the rough stuff and other extreme trends, about differentiating the product. Since there is so much interchangeable stuff being produced - who could tell the difference between Gangland 165 and Black Dicks in White Chicks 274 for example - producers have to try to make their videos stand out. There are few ways of differentiating your product. The cheap and nasty way is literally nasty - Rough Sex, Gag Factor - look at the first page on the Anabolic site to see the latest revolting idea to emanate from the San Fernando Valley - and requires no talent. The expensive way is to make a genunely erotic film - but this requires talent as well. I could probably count the number of American porn directors, alive and dead, who could do this on the fingers of two hands. Using toes as well I could include the Europeans.
With regard to such films in Britain - in hard core the market wouldn't support the expense, I suspect. Even in the 70s, the only candidate would be Diversions and even that used the standard porn device of a series of dream sequences, i.e. vignettes. Though vignettes are better than no story at all.
I'd also add that many American producers think that any storyline will do. In my view the story has to be about sex. That is make a film of an erotic novel, but don't try to make a porn film version of Die Hard. There are exceptions, but most such attempts to shoehorn sex scenes into, say, a whodunnit don't work.
I hasten to add by the way, that I do like some gonzo. I just want to see erotica as well.
I forgot to watch the Ron Jeremay programme, but the decline in erotic films certainly had something to do with video. Flint discusses this in his book Babylon Blue. He does point to a revival in the late 80s and early 90s, but then gonzo killed that off, e.g. John Leslie, who made some of the best erotic films at about that time, went gonzo.. He also points out that using 35 mm survived as a practice in Italy - and this is the one place still making reasonably erotic films - the late Joe d'Amato, Mario Salieri, Alex Perry.
I hope those in the industry will excuse the following speculation if it's mistaken in any respects, but my analysis goes something like this. With camcorders and the acceptability of gonzo, the world and his brother can make a porn video - not a good porn video, but certainly a video which shows people having sex. This dramatically increases the supply and many punters will just buy anything that shows people having hard core sex and many retailers are equally indiscrinate in what they sell - for indiscriminate sometimes read ignorant. Competition is thus on the basis of price as you can shoot a gonzo scene in half a day (not necessarily well, I hasten to add). There's also so much being produced that any one ordinary video can't sell a huge number. Therefore the producer has to get round this by making more videos. It therefore becomes an assembly line where the producer just goes through the motions (pun intended as, unfortunately, in some cases they get the performers to actually do this). To adapt Henry Ford, you can have any type of porn provided it's wall-to-wall - I wouldn't even dignify most of the American production-line stuff with the name gonzo.
Thus very few people can afford to spend the money and the time (and time equals money) that is required to make an erotic hard core FEATURE film. It's not just the cost of costumes, sets, stop-start filming, attention to continuity etc.- the things that people often think of when they talk about high production values - but the time taken to come up with a good script, plan how it will be filmed, get the actors and crew together etc. They wouldn't make a profit on the investment.
Of course the other thing you need to make such a film is talent. Someone made a point in a similar thread a couple of weeks back in relation to the rough stuff and other extreme trends, about differentiating the product. Since there is so much interchangeable stuff being produced - who could tell the difference between Gangland 165 and Black Dicks in White Chicks 274 for example - producers have to try to make their videos stand out. There are few ways of differentiating your product. The cheap and nasty way is literally nasty - Rough Sex, Gag Factor - look at the first page on the Anabolic site to see the latest revolting idea to emanate from the San Fernando Valley - and requires no talent. The expensive way is to make a genunely erotic film - but this requires talent as well. I could probably count the number of American porn directors, alive and dead, who could do this on the fingers of two hands. Using toes as well I could include the Europeans.
With regard to such films in Britain - in hard core the market wouldn't support the expense, I suspect. Even in the 70s, the only candidate would be Diversions and even that used the standard porn device of a series of dream sequences, i.e. vignettes. Though vignettes are better than no story at all.
I'd also add that many American producers think that any storyline will do. In my view the story has to be about sex. That is make a film of an erotic novel, but don't try to make a porn film version of Die Hard. There are exceptions, but most such attempts to shoehorn sex scenes into, say, a whodunnit don't work.
I hasten to add by the way, that I do like some gonzo. I just want to see erotica as well.
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lurker
In Defense of Porn
I agree with some of what Officer Dibble has stated
in the previous thread - particularly the competitive
nature of some American Gonzo producers attempting to
'out gross' each other.
But I feel like I have to speak in defence of Gonzo, as
someone who does enjoy the genre. I have seen enough porn of
various kinds to have made up my own mind on what I enjoy.
First, Gonzo introduced a more naturalistic style of sex
than the 'would-be-hollywood complete with highly contrived
storylines' style. Camcorders meant that you could film
two people having sex with a minimum of forward planning.
In other words, I think that Gonzo moved an industry
towards portraying 'the kind of sex real people have' -
a trend which I accept has been somewhat corrupted by
the desire to 'out gross.'
Second, Gonzo is important to the UK scene. Unable to
compete with the budgets and the production facilities of
big American companies, shooting gonzo-style is something
that Brits (Ben Dover, Terry Stephens & Phil McC) do well.
Finally, portrayal of sex in all its forms helps
dispel myths and break down taboos. Part of the reason
'extreme' porn sells is that people have curiosity about different kinds of sex that they would not necessarily
encounter in their relationships. Not every guy will
want to have anal sex with his girlfriend, but its long
history of portayal in porn has helped create an
environment where couples are more likely to discuss
these things.
I *can* find 'extreme'/'nasty' sex erotic, with the proviso
that the girl is into it. There can be nothing less erotic
than sex where one or other of the parties is simply going
through the motions - and some of the porn that Dibble
refers to is of this kind.
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P R Mann
Re: Attn marcusallen & alec
Good comment and analysis of the situation Alec.
The P R Mann would like to alert erotic movie fans to the fact that there will be a selection of the excellent Marc Dorcel movies featuring the gorgeous Laure Sainclair, which Alex has mentioned, in the imminent new catalogue from HCC. There's even one featuring a well-known Brit porn star, which I hadn't seen before!
I would like to draw your attention to the fact that HCC does make an attempt put the odd feature together and put the hardcore clips into some kind of framework or context. This does involve a bit of thought, a rudimentary script and dialogue - as in 'Carrie Potter & The Philosopher's Bone' with Chanta Rose and the girls- Show No. 590. However, budgetary, and time constraints limit what can be achieved. But HCC does make an effort.
You maybe interested to hear that there have been meetings between various porno parties, where the subject of actually making a decent British fuck flick, in the style of Marc Dorcel, has been actively discussed. Between them these parties have the requisite talent, vision and dough to make it happen. And if they can get their act together I'm sure it will, even if it's just to say, "that's what we can do if we really try? and be able to stand on a bit firmer ground when we denounce any other producer's work as crap!
Watch this space.
P R Mann
The P R Mann would like to alert erotic movie fans to the fact that there will be a selection of the excellent Marc Dorcel movies featuring the gorgeous Laure Sainclair, which Alex has mentioned, in the imminent new catalogue from HCC. There's even one featuring a well-known Brit porn star, which I hadn't seen before!
I would like to draw your attention to the fact that HCC does make an attempt put the odd feature together and put the hardcore clips into some kind of framework or context. This does involve a bit of thought, a rudimentary script and dialogue - as in 'Carrie Potter & The Philosopher's Bone' with Chanta Rose and the girls- Show No. 590. However, budgetary, and time constraints limit what can be achieved. But HCC does make an effort.
You maybe interested to hear that there have been meetings between various porno parties, where the subject of actually making a decent British fuck flick, in the style of Marc Dorcel, has been actively discussed. Between them these parties have the requisite talent, vision and dough to make it happen. And if they can get their act together I'm sure it will, even if it's just to say, "that's what we can do if we really try? and be able to stand on a bit firmer ground when we denounce any other producer's work as crap!
Watch this space.
P R Mann
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marcusallen
Re: Attn marcusallen & alec
Yes, mostly it's a question of economics. With one or two notable exceptions, no-one can afford to produce the kind of thing Alec etc mentioned. It is certainly out of the question in the UK. The initial cost of equipment alone would frighten the daylights out of a would-be producer; then he has to sell the damn thing.
Content is a different matter and if the indicators on my little survey are anything to go by, perhaps there is still a market for erotica.
I take the point about "hardstuff" and was not knocking it per se, merely my own taste.
Content is a different matter and if the indicators on my little survey are anything to go by, perhaps there is still a market for erotica.
I take the point about "hardstuff" and was not knocking it per se, merely my own taste.
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EC
Re: Attn marcusallen & alec
A feature film doesn't have to be expensive. As a filmmaker who comes from a feature film background I have made films from ?2,000-?12,000 (on video) and be involved and worked on film on 35mm movies from ?40,000 up to several million. Making films low budget takes a lot of work but is not impossible. Whats important is to have a production team willing to pull their weight and a crew who understand what it is you are trying to achieve.
I am not familiar with HCC but would be interested to know more about the films that P R Mann is talking about.
I am not familiar with HCC but would be interested to know more about the films that P R Mann is talking about.
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alec
Re: Attn marcusallen & alec
Yes, but how much time are we talking about here, and thus income from producing several basic videos foregone?
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joe king
Re: Attn marcusallen & alec
how many years have you been in the porn biz?
Are you just wasting your money trying to get R18 mail-order restrictions lifted if you don't find most of what R18 contains 'erotic'?
Why not just make 18 cert softcore 'erotica'? Why should people find what you find erotic, erotic?
'Unfortunately there is no market for this(erotica) as all the Top Shelf titles are controlled/owned by four companies who have long decided what "The Public" want.' Who are these companies? Is it mags you talk about or vids? Is it DS or his brother? Is it WHSMITH?
If a man was wearing a skirt and you looked up it - would you find it erotic?
Are you just wasting your money trying to get R18 mail-order restrictions lifted if you don't find most of what R18 contains 'erotic'?
Why not just make 18 cert softcore 'erotica'? Why should people find what you find erotic, erotic?
'Unfortunately there is no market for this(erotica) as all the Top Shelf titles are controlled/owned by four companies who have long decided what "The Public" want.' Who are these companies? Is it mags you talk about or vids? Is it DS or his brother? Is it WHSMITH?
If a man was wearing a skirt and you looked up it - would you find it erotic?