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Nothing wrong with Religion or politics as long as they are not extreme, bit like masturbation really.

wonderfully put and it seems to sum people up on each of extreme ends of the religious debate..wankers.

I see an ignorant and blinkered view coming from you SB.

[quote]You probably missed the partition of India, the Irish troubles, 9/11, Bush's "crusades", regular slaughter of Muslims by Hindus in India and Buddhists in Thailand, regular attacks on Hindus by Buddhists in Sri Lanka...[/quote]

You never once mention the slaughtering Muslims do to Jews in Israel, the slaughtering Muslims do to Hindus -and Sikhs on occasion- in India, the slaughtering Muslims do to Buddhists in Southern Thailand, and the slaughtering Muslims do to Christians in Indonesia and parts of North Africa. You just talk about the slaughter 'of' Muslims and disregard ther slaughter 'by Muslims. Why is this?

[quote]Then there's people having unprotected sex in third world countries because the Pope says that contraception is a sin.[/quote]

The pope is a man...........a catholic at that. Catholicism is a different branch of Christianity that the Romans invented once they adopted the religion. It was a good way to keep the influence and power they were losing throughout Europe that's all.

[quote]Of course, the Jewish claim to Palestine (based supposedly on the Bible) is the cause of a lot of problems these days.[/quote]

There is archaeological evidence these days by digging up ancient remains, villages, and looking through old scripts that just about prove that the Israelites -before Judaism- lived and worked the land. The bible these days isn't needed as proof. I'd argue that during the last 3000 years, Jews have lost land to the Palestinians. (but that's another story). Anyway I see a land struggle, not a religious one.

[quote]There are attacks on abortion clinics in America, including murders.[/quote]

Wierdos with nothing better to do. I've never read in any Bible where it says you can attack someone who helps women abort, or murder people.

[quote]The Saudis don't allow women many rights, for religious excuses.[/quote]

Oh so now it's the Saudis? Like I pointed out previously, you seem to avoid naming Islam/Muslims in a bad light. You could have said "Muslims don't allow women's rights." but you refrained. You were quick to use 'Jewish claim to Palestine' above when you could have said 'Israeli claim to Palestine'. So you're being inconsistent. You're blaming all Jews for a regional problem in Palestine/Israel/Judah, but only blaming Saudis for a predominantly Muslim problem. Again, why is that?

[quote]Stem cell research being banned in the USA for religious reasons.[/quote]

Now come on. When the Bible was written, how could they judge the moral view on stem cell research? This is clearly a perfect example of my viewpoint. That these are just ignorant, scared people using religion to backup their stance against something they don't agree with.

[quote]Women being stoned for adultery in Pakistan.[/quote]

This wouldn't happen in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia etc etc? Not a general Muslim problem then?

[quote]America has the world's highest teen pregnancy rate because religious groups disallow sex education.[/quote]

Thank you. You said 'religious groups' not religion. A religious group is just a group of people who happen to be religious.......correct? So these groups views on sex education is just that: their views, and not religions view.


If you think I'm wrong then take time to ponder something you may have overlooked....

I'm sure if a man watched anal sex on a r18 dvd and then anally raped a 13 year old girl, you'd be outraged if the media blamed pornographic material for this man's actions, correct? Isn't it then also stupid to blame religion for certain actions some people commit where it looks like -at first glance- that religion had an influence?

whatever did cliff see in it?

Ban it !

Sam Slater wrote:

> You just
> talk about the slaughter 'of' Muslims and disregard ther
> slaughter 'by Muslims. Why is this?

You ignore at this point that I mentioned 9/11 - where Islam was used as an excuse to slaughter 3,000 people. I picked on several major religions including Islam. You seem to want to focus only on one religion.

> [quote]Then there's people having unprotected sex in third
> world countries because the Pope says that contraception is a
> sin.[/quote]
>
> The pope is a man...........a catholic at that.

True - all religious behaviour is carried out by humans. Without humans, religion would be harmless.

> [quote]Of course, the Jewish claim to Palestine (based
> supposedly on the Bible) is the cause of a lot of problems
> these days.[/quote]
>
> There is archaeological evidence these days by digging up
> ancient remains, villages, and looking through old scripts that
> just about prove that the Israelites -before Judaism- lived and
> worked the land. The bible these days isn't needed as proof.
> I'd argue that during the last 3000 years, Jews have lost land
> to the Palestinians. (but that's another story). Anyway I see a
> land struggle, not a religious one.

I agree. The atrocities in both directions (and Israel is by far the worst offender) are to do with land, not religion, but the jusitification for creating the state of Israel was a religious one.

> [quote]There are attacks on abortion clinics in America,
> including murders.[/quote]
>
> Wierdos with nothing better to do. I've never read in any Bible
> where it says you can attack someone who helps women abort, or
> murder people.

The Bible is full of justifications for killing people. God did it all the time according to the Old Testament. And God often commanded the Israelites to rape and murder.

> [quote]The Saudis don't allow women many rights, for religious
> excuses.[/quote]
>
> Oh so now it's the Saudis? Like I pointed out previously, you
> seem to avoid naming Islam/Muslims in a bad light. You could
> have said "Muslims don't allow women's rights."

But that would be untrue. There are about 70 Islamic countries, but only a handful that use Islam to justify oppression. I could have said "Muslims in Saudi Arabia don't allow Muslim women their rights" but it would be a bit redundant.

> but only blaming
> Saudis for a predominantly Muslim problem. Again, why is that?

Like I said, Saudi Arabia is a specific case. If I said "Muslims" I'd be ignoring the countries like Turkey or Malaysia which don't behave like the Saudis.

> [quote]Stem cell research being banned in the USA for religious
> reasons.[/quote]
>
> Now come on. When the Bible was written, how could they judge
> the moral view on stem cell research? This is clearly a perfect
> example of my viewpoint. That these are just ignorant, scared
> people using religion to backup their stance against something
> they don't agree with.

Yes, but that's the problem, isn't it? Without the cover of religion, these people would have no argument at all for their irrational views.

> [quote]Women being stoned for adultery in Pakistan.[/quote]
>
> This wouldn't happen in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia
> etc etc? Not a general Muslim problem then?

Nope, because the majority of Muslim countries don't behave in this way. Pre-9/11, Islamic extremists were involved in running only 3 countries: Afghanistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia. Now we can add Iraq and Pakistan to the list. Still only 5 out of 70 countries.

> [quote]America has the world's highest teen pregnancy rate
> because religious groups disallow sex education.[/quote]
>
> Thank you. You said 'religious groups' not religion. A
> religious group is just a group of people who happen to be
> religious.......correct? So these groups views on sex education
> is just that: their views, and not religions view.

Your argument is like the pro-gun one: Guns don't kill people, people do.

Well OK, religion doesn't persecute people: religious people do.

> If you think I'm wrong then take time to ponder something you
> may have overlooked....
>
> I'm sure if a man watched anal sex on a r18 dvd and then anally
> raped a 13 year old girl, you'd be outraged if the media blamed
> pornographic material for this man's actions, correct? Isn't it
> then also stupid to blame religion for certain actions some
> people commit where it looks like -at first glance- that
> religion had an influence?

There's a very important difference. Small children aren't forced to watch porn, but they're taught lies as fact, when they haven't learned yet to distinguish fact from fiction. If 5 year olds were forced to watch anal porn, it could do some serious damage.

Can't argue with those stats!

You mean I can't jag off too much?

I read all off your post and the way I see it, it is better to be spiritual than to be religious.

Thanks for a well laid out reply, and you've cleared a few things up. However I'll reply better at a later time as a night out with the girlfriend is calling.

Adios!