egafd.com

And I stress again, they wouldn't be 11 year olds which is the whole point of my original post. Specially making shotguns for kids!!!!

steve56 wrote:

> Been watching Hawaii Five O and there was a episode about a
> sniper must have been about 17 18 makes you think as there
> have been a few cases similar in the UK


Off topic question, but was you watching Hawaii Five O on broadcast TV?

If so, what station? Haven't seen it on since the days of Granada plus.

Reggie Perrin wrote:

> People don't generally own shotguns (even before 1968) and the
> people who would have owned them would have lived in the
> country, not an urban setting.

Sorry Reggie, but every comment you make shows you know nothing about the history of how guns were owned in Britain, and the way laws to control them developed. Your comment that people did not generally own shotguns before 1968 is quite wrong, gun ownership was widespread, controls were few, and it did not lead to mayhem. Today handguns are banned for the law abiding, and teenage gangsters use them to shoot people who diss them in nightclubs. Gun control in Britain has always been about the establishment finding ways to disarm the people, not criminals. There is no point trying to disarm criminals, since they are people who break the law. The reason criminals did not use guns much in the past is because they were afraid of the rope. Now they are not afraid of anything.

Reggie Perrin wrote:

> Most people did not own shotguns in towns and cities when they
> were freely available, maybe in the sticks where you live but
> that isn't in town. You'll have to back up your statement that
> most people owned a gun pre 1968 with some kind of reference.
> The society of 40+ years ago was significantly different and
> even if most people had shotguns then they would not usually be
> carried around in public.

Reggie:

I can back it up very easily, since I did not say it! You said they were not generally available, which they were. Literally millions of shotguns were sold without restriction before 1968, and most of them still exist in lofts and cupboards, doing no harm to anyone.

> I think we were talking about ownership and use of hand guns,
> something that you can carry around with you and would be in
> easy reach. We were not even talking about criminals but
> ordinary people who might settle some petty dispute with small
> weapon. If guns were available in the UK as they are in the USA
> you would have a shooting incident every day because in terms
> of the way people behave in public in this country, that's
> exactly what would happen. My point was that society has
> changed so much in the UK in terms of public behaviour. I
> didn't say anything about criminals.

The point you make here was made in every American state which passed a right to carry law, but it has never happened. Criminals carried handguns anyway, the law was changed in over 40 states now to enable ordinary people to legally carry a concealed handgun. It simply does not cause a problem.

I'm not having a go, but you really don't know much about this subject. For instance, do you know that about 10,000 people in Northern Ireland have a licence to carry a concealed hangun, that in a population of 1,500,000. Problems caused? None.

Criminals get guns and cause crime whatever laws you pass. The experience of countries which allow decent people to own and carry guns is that they simply do not rush out and kill people. I don't know where you live, but I'm sure there are some nasty bastards walking around right now carrying guns, the fact it is illegal does not bother them, no other law does.

Reggie Perrin wrote:

> We weren't talking about criminals and there was not popular
> ownership of shotguns or other firearms before 1968. Most
> people have never seen a working shotgun or pistol. Unless you
> can provide a link, seeing as you know so much about this
> subject, to some figures showing that most people had a gun in
> the past then I'm inclined to think you are making that up. If
> we had guns freely available in the UK, there would be a
> shooting incident every day, probably less likely in the past
> because people behaved themselves better in public and at home.

Sorry Reggie, but there is a long history of popular gun ownership in the UK, it's just that you don't know about it. Before 1920 there were no gun controls, and millions of pistols were sold, they were commonly owned, and many turn up to this day. Of course, one cannot point to records, because by definition there are none, they were sold without restiction, as were shotguns up to 1968.

You are right to say most people in the UK have never seen a real gun, ever tighter gun control in this country has seen to that, we now have one of the lowest levels of legal gun ownership in the western world. By the way, do stop putting words in my mouth, I never said most people owned guns in the past, but that ownership was unrestricted and widespread, which it was.

I note you have not tried to address the point I made about Northern Ireland: 10,000 people have a licence to carry a concealed handgun, equivalent to about half a million in the mainland UK, yet there is no misuse. The ban on legal ownership of handguns in Britain (not including Northern Ireland by the way) has had no effect on gun crime at all. The hard evidence of Northern Ireland, and the 40 US states which allow legal concealed carry, is that law abiding people simply do not abuse their right to carry. You might think it will happen, but the facts on the ground are clear, they do not. The gangsters who shoot each other in nightclubs do so whatever the law says, the only people who obey the law are, by definition, not a problem.

I realise this is hard to get your head round, because, as I said, Britain has become, by government action, the least armed country in the western world. You only see guns in the context of crime, and therfore imagine that mere possession of arms will turn otherwise reasonable people into killers over minor disputes. But I have to tell you it just does not happen in the countries, including a part of our country, where many people carry concealed handguns quite legally.