Spiffing Lib Dem Con idea

[Sam Slater]

Ok.

[David Johnson]

Sam said about Number 6

"You're the one wishing for political parties to 'cease to be' because you don't agree with what they're doing. I find that a frightening way of thinking and completely at odds with the founding principles of democracy."

Is one of the founding principles of democracy that you don't get voters to support your party based on one set of principles in a manifesto and then throw them out in return for power, a few weeks after the election?

In short should there be any connection whatsoever between the policies as espoused by the party you vote for and what they do within two months of getting into power?

Vote for us for no 6billion of cuts this year. Throw that out.
Vote for us based on our beliefs in what would harm the country's economic recovery. Throw that out.
Vote for us for no Tory VAT bombshell. Throw that out.
Vote for no foreign policy in alliance with "homophobes, nutters and anti-semites in Europe" . Throw that out.
Vote for us for fairness in society. Throw that out when we support a budget claimed by independent, fiscal analysts to be regressive and hit the poorest in society.
Vote for us for keeping schools under the control of local authorities. Throw that out. Let's support all the schools being asked to become academies outside of council control.
Vote for fairness in our education system. Throw that out in favour of a cancellation of 700+ schools projects and instead in favour of money for "free" schools outside the control of local authorities.
Vote for no Trident. Throw that out though we will have a look at the costs.
Vote for us for no top down re-organisation in the NHS. Throw that out whilst we introduce plans to privatise the NHS.
Vote for us for a green vote against nuclear power. Throw that out, but we got a member of our party to lead the legislation for the new nuclear power stations. Good eh!
Vote for us for no increase in student fees. Throw that out, but we have been allowed to abstain on any increased charges.
Vote for consultation. Throw that out we dont want any real discussion from people, particularly parents as to what we think about our incredibly far-reaching schools programmes. Let's not bother with all this green paper rubbish, eh! Lets get that law through by the end of the week if we can?

Thats enough for the moment. And the coalition is only been going about 2 months! But hey, its consensus politics, I just can't get my "mentally childish" mind around it. Eh?

And you talk about the founding principles of democracy? Don't make me laugh!

Cheers
D

[Sam Slater]

[quote]Thats enough for the moment. And the coalition is only been going about 2 months! But hey, its consensus politics, I just can't get my "mentally childish" mind around it. Eh?[/quote]

Those are your words, not mine.

I see how you're more inclined to question my stance on voting, and supporting, a certain political party over number 6's more frightening stance on wishing political parties he doesn't agree with 'ceasing to be'.

You ask if this is democracy and I say 'yes!'. If me, you, or number 6 decide the Lib Dems have gone to far, or let us down, we have choice on whether to vote for them again. In number 6's world (a world you don't seem overly keen on condemning with as much gusto as you do me), we don't even have that choice. Don't like a party? Wipe 'em out! Fantastic.

[number 6]

The lib dems are tories,its as simple as that. Vote lib dem get tory,so what is the point of calling themselves lib dems,they have no meaning of their own,they are tory lap dogs. Lib dem voters will go to the labour party and it will be a two way fight at the next election with the lib dems a tiny speck on the political map.

[David Johnson]

You have obviously focused in on Number 6s statement on hoping the Lib Dems "cease to be". You have repeatedly ignored his explanation of this and talked about his view as "frightening!" Again either you focus on insults to avoid the issues or you blow some point up into "frightening" and against democratic principles.

Anything to avoid the issues being discussed!

Yet again on your behalf, number 6 states that the Lib Dems are acting like Tories in power. You may clearly disagree but that is his view. With that as a backdrop, people will inevitably question what then is the point of the Lib Dems if they are going to support the most virulently right wing government seen in a generation and that includes Thatcher.

Personally, I support a multi-party democracy in which an opposition party can mount a strong opposition to the principles and ethos of the government of the day. The question is how can the Lib Dems do that now having been often regarded as a joke before the election and now regarded with contempt by those people who despise the Tory views.

This is not a "frightening" view. In a sense it is supported by Lib Dem senior members such as Grayson who helped write parts of the Lib Dem 2010 manifesto and pointed out that the Lib Dem party had been taken over by its centre-right who had much more in common with the Tories. And how we know he is right from what has happened in the last two months!

Personally what I would like to see is the Lib Dems hopefully wiped out in the next election. The likes of Clegg and Alexander can go to their seemingly natural homes of the Tory party and the Lib Dems can then try to revert to their beliefs as held in their manifesto and all their pre-election speeches. And they can then try to rebuild on the basis of the fantastic support to the virulent Tory party policies as being a temporary aberration. I can see no other way forward for them.

Cheers
D

[Sam Slater]

Oh, please. Come up with something a bit more original.

[Sam Slater]

[quote]You have obviously focused in on Number 6s statement[/quote]

As you only focus on mine !happy!

[quote]Yet again on your behalf, number 6 states that the Lib Dems are acting like Tories in power. You may clearly disagree but that is his view. With that as a backdrop, people will inevitably question what then is the point of the Lib Dems if they are going to support the most virulently right wing government seen in a generation and that includes Thatcher.[/quote]

If number 6 is wrong (the Lib Dems are different to the Tories) then that means they are a viable alternative and having that is, in my view, a good thing. If you think that a bad thing then I find that frightening. If number 6 is right (the Lib Dems are no different to the Tories) then number 6's view that they should 'cease to be' then that would mean more votes (those who would have voted Lib Dem) would go to centre-right parties (mainly the Tories). What ever way you look at it, wanting the Lib Dems to disappear from the political landscape stupid and undemocratic. I think you know this but don't want to criticise your mate because you've both got comfortable backslapping and high-fiving eachother these past three or four months !happy!

[quote]Personally, I support a multi-party democracy in which an opposition party can mount a strong opposition to the principles and ethos of the government of the day.[/quote]

So that's curtains to the Greens too, then? Personally I support multi-party democracy whereby anyone, no matter how small and insignificant, can represent their own values, and any number of like-minded individuals who take the time out to vote for them. This, I guess, is where we differ. Maybe that's why Labour don't fancy PR. Like you, they'd prefer to keep the smaller parties as insignificant as possible because they'd prefer a two-party system whereby everyone's labelled into one box or the other; where you're either over here, or over there with 'them'. It's black and white politics, if you please, that's simple to follow and hard lines are drawn. No shades of grey for you lot! I'm rambling, so I'll stop. I'm sure you get the idea.

[quote]This is not a "frightening" view.[/quote]

To you, maybe, but I'm not too surprised.

[quote]Personally what I would like to see is the Lib Dems hopefully wiped out in the next election.[/quote]

No doubt! And can the Greens, Tories and other parties keep their identity? Pretty please, Mr. David Jong-Il?!!

From the tinternet: "On 30 January 1933, Hitler was sworn in as Chancellor of Germany in a ceremony held at Hindenburg?s office. Having gained legislative and executive power, Hitler began his move towards establishing the Nazi?s dictatorship in Germany. Though Nazi party had failed to gain majority in parliament, he blocked all attempts of his opponents to come into power through elections. Hitler?s government further banned Communist Party of Germany and Social Democratic party and forced all other parties to dissolve (Sam's note: or maybe he wished they 'ceased to be'???). On 14 July 1933, Nazi Party was declared the only legal Party in Germany. After the death of President Hindenburg on 2 August 1934, Hitler was made the supreme commander of the military and ultimate power of the nation, whose officers took oath to Hitler?s loyalty."

!adolf! Well, you were the one that brought Hitler up first! !adolf!

[David Johnson]

Nonsense!

[David Johnson]

Number 6,

Sam seems to be in some distress. He is increasingly sounding angry and confused.

In just two threads he has made the following references to me:

"For what it's worth, I don't think you're responsible for the war in Iraq by voting Labour in 2001. That's silly talk and reminds me of religious views, where you're born a sinner and commanded to be well. It's unhealthy.....just like your obsession with Nick Clegg."

"Personally, my opinion is that he's (i.e. me) like too many in this country and treats politics like supporting a football team; too many people take a side and it's in their blood forever....supporting them through the good and bad times, etc....think and thin, and all that. I think that mentality childish and unhelpful to us all"

"No doubt! And can the Greens, Tories and other parties keep their identity? Pretty please, Mr. David Jong-Il?!!" Likening me to a North Korean totalitarian dictator in response to a thread where I support multi-party democracy.

And about yourself Number 6 "Wow. How original. I see what you did there, number 6. Very clever. Think of that one all by yourself?" i.e you are as thick as pig shit.

And having gone through all that he states "David doesn't seem to want debate, he seems to prefer pinning the blame on something/someone and ridicule" I disagree with what the Lib Dems are doing, you see?

Errr, yes, well. Law of diminishing returns here.

Personally I think it best to leave him to work his own pain out.

Cheers
D

[Sam Slater]

Lol.