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I just wanted to make the point that I didnt support paramilitaries of either colour and I hope I have - likewise you have said the same and I respect that. Everyone in Northern Ireland is biased in some way but in different degrees - I have a slight bias towards the security forces like most other protestant and I suspect you have a bias against like most other catholics (but I am NOT implying that it makes u an IRA sympathiser) but thats life and is no different to views of the police in any other divided community be that on colour, creed or religion.

Northern Ireland will always be complicated but, as sad as this may seem, I dont think it will ever end and my theory on why is very simple - too many people are making too much money from the current situation to want it to end.

From police constables earning 40k a year to paramilitaries who can use the threat of violence to extort money from businesses to politicians getting paid while not actually doing the job they were elected to do to businesses making silly money from contracts to refit premises after bombs etc etc etc - the list goes on.

I still stand by my arguments on the soldiers hands being tied because I think its unreasonable to send an 18 year kid into somewhere like belfast, hand him a loaded gun and then crucify him when something happens. The point I want to make tho is that whether that terrorist with the machine gun is republican or loyalist he deserves all that he gets.

As far as I am concerned we still do get on, I respect your views and your rights to those views so as far as I am concerned nothing has changed. This is a forum where people express opinions which is what we have both done so in this instance, from my side anyway, religion wont divide me nor change my opinions of you especially now we have both clarified our positions.

Jason

good stuff but lets just agree now that come the "marching season" we both keep quiet for the duration lol

"The bombings by the IRA have only stopped since the peace process started. The military strength of the British Army and the SAS ambushes on IRA cells didnt stop the violence did they? I seem to remember an IRA cell being ambushed and shot to bits on a country lane in South Armagh. It didnt really stop anything though did it? The bombings only stopped when the talking started."

Firstly (as a protestant) I would have to say is the bombings by the Provisional IRA may have stopped but not by other factions such as the Real IRA and there is HUGE suspicion in the protestant commmunity that they are one and the same organisation or at the very least that there is collaboration, information sharing, skills sharing and hardware sharing. Ultimately no matter which faction it is it still creates the same fear in the protestant community so whether its the Real IRA or the Provos its Republican paramilitaries (and yes I know the same applies the other way around with the UFF, UVF, Red Hand Commandos, LVF etc etc).

Second point I guess is that there is more to a ceasefire than just stopping bombing though thats a good start - not one of the parimilitary organisations have kept their ceasefire obligations so again not finger pointing. People are still getting kneecapped, there are still bombs being planted tho not in the same scale as before and intelligence gathering is still going on.

I think the point I was trying to make was more about deterrence factor of crime in general and not just relating to terrorism and Northern Ireland. An example, a 16 year kid decides to go out and mug some old lady - at the moment if he is caught what is he likely to get? Community service? Suspended sentence? On the other hand if knew he was gonna get 5 years behind bars if he was caught (and I emphasize the if but thats another topic!) would be as likely to commit the crime? I personally dont think so - in my opinion the same applies in Northern Ireland.

Pre Good Friday terrorists were being jailed for anywhere between 15 years and life for murder(s) which meant they were out in about 7-12 years. While they were in prison they ran the prisons, they did what they liked when the like and it was like a Butlins holiday camp. Now personally I dont see that as having any deterrent factor at all - if on the other hand they knew getting caught meant death then would they be as likely to do it? I guess it comes back to is the death penalty in general a deterrent factor, I think it is others may disagree.

But back to the question! I dont the military operations of the type you mentioned against the IRA (am using them because u used them as an example) didnt work because they werent followed up on - in the example of Loughall, that was the East Tyrone Bridage practically wiped out and they ceased to exist as a viable force for about 2 or 3 years if my memory serves me right. I think at the time all the "experts" were saying that 2 Loughalls could have finished the IRA as fighting force for many many years.

The most ironic thing is that the terrorists in Northern Ireland call it a war but they expect the goverment to fight by the rules while they dont - I remember once a US politican standing up in senate to raise the issue of IRA prisoners not being given their rights under the Geneva Convention, it was then pointed out to him that under the Geneva Convention a soldier out of a recgonised military uniform is classed as a spy and can be executed under said treaty!

Does dialogue and compromise work? I remain to be convinced, like I said above terrorist activity still exists and ultimately terrorist prisoners are out on the streets laughing in the faces of the families of the people they murdered.

On the governments side demilitarization is happening despite what politicians may want people to believe. First it was basic things like not wearing body armour, then it was soft berets for soldiers, then no automatic weopans for police, then stopping using armoured police cars, the RUC no longer exists, reforms of the RUC/PSNI are happening, lots of police stations have been closed, those that havent have been softened with a lot of overy security measures removed, border roads have been reopened, military infrastructure has started to be dismantled, troop numbers have dropped and what troops there are u hardly ever see out and about on the streets except on rare occassions and so it goes on.

On the paramilitary side what do we see? Whether they are green or orange decommissioning has been a complete farce and terrorists are in government (and not just Sinn Fein, I include the UDP, PUP etc).

Balance the two up and I know who has had the best deal which is why so many people inside Northern Ireland (on both sides I think) are so sceptical.

However when its all said and done its my home and I dont want to it slide into civil war like we have saw in yugoslavia etc so I hope dialogue and compromise does work but the terrorists and their political representatives need to start doing their bit and delivering what the people ultimately want - proper true and long lasting peace!

Jason

forgive the errors in grammar and punctuation, I aint been to bed yet

Jase

......and when you get up, your site is off- I can't get beyond the title page in either IE5 or Opera 7.0.

I aint been to bed yet - very long story.

The site is up and in test at the moment but I have one more thing to try and sort out before it does live. If you want the url to have a look email me

Jason

No hurry.

"Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they actually look forward to the experience"