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They are all a bunch of overpaid under talented morons who would stumble on putting three or more words together to form a sentence.
But then I am a RUF fan.

[quote]Obviously not... [/quote]

I'm glad you think that. So you agree that, being human, and allowing him to have human emotions, we must conclude that Bridge is indeed upset/embarrassed about the whole situation and he's in no way at fault for the whole thing. Indeed, you'd agree with me that he's more than likely completely innocent and that this circus has been thrust upon him by both an ex-girlfriend and ex-friend.

Given that he finds himself in such a situation, and being a human being with emotions, he's decided that he cannot work with John Terry in a team where morale, trust and camaraderie are important phenomena in a team sport. We can assume that he's actually putting the England team first in not letting his presence affect others unnecessarily and that he is not, as you seem to imply, 'self obsessed', or 'gutless'.

If he was self obsessed I'm sure he could have got more sympathy by selling a sob story to the tabloids, which he hasn't done.

You make a decent point about other people having to work with others they don't like, or have problems with, and some may indeed be able to work alongside someone (even a best mate) who's been shafting your missus all while you were having relationship issues. But, rarely does this information become knowledge to all your other colleagues, friends, family, neighbours, local landlords, shopkeepers and paper-boys. Under such circumstances your average joe may still be able to comfort themselves in the knowledge that the embarrassing situation you find yourself in is at least a mostly private matter. Bridge has been made a mug of by a mate......end of.

In my opinion working alongside Terry again, as if nothing has happened, makes him look professional, yes, but also a bit of a mug that lets people walk all over him.....a bit of a pussy, as it were. If he'd nutted Terry instead of shaking his hand he'd look less of a push-over, but more of a jealous thug and very unprofessional. Under the circumstance he did the right thing in sticking to his principles, keeping schtum, and avoiding the extra interest his presence in the England squad would encourage.

David, David, David .. you can be healed.

"So you agree that, being human, and allowing him to have human emotions, we must conclude that Bridge is indeed upset/embarrassed about the whole situation and he's in no way at fault for the whole thing"

There are a huge number of assumptions you are making here.
1. Upset/embarrassed. If he had already split up with his girlfriend before Terry got involved in a relationship with her, then he has no reason to be embarrassed about this. His girlfriend is not owned by Bridge. If this relationship started whilst they were still together, I can obviously see why he is upset about it.
2. "he's in no way at fault for the whole thing" How on earth do you know that? For all you know Bridge could be the partner from hell - obsessive, bullying, possessive etc.

Given that neither Terry, Bridge nor Perroncell have gone public on this, where do your comments on this relationship and its timing come from - the tabloid press? Ah yes, very reliable sources.

"Given that he finds himself in such a situation, and being a human being with emotions, he's decided that he cannot work with John Terry in a team where morale, trust and camaraderie are important phenomena in a team sport. We can assume that he's actually putting the England team first "

1. "We can assume... "Another assumption which may be right, it may be wrong.
2. "Morale, trust and camaraderie". I remember Andy Cole and Sheringham at Man Utd absolutely hated each other and did not speak one word to each other. I do not know the reason but it did not stop them playing effectively together on the pitch despite their personal animosity.

"Under such circumstances your average joe may still be able to comfort themselves in the knowledge that the embarrassing situation you find yourself in is at least a mostly private matter. Bridge has been made a mug of by a mate......end of."

1. "your average joe may still be able to comfort" This is often incorrect. I have worked in offices where individuals had had a relationship with the wife of someone else. In those office situations, typically, everyone knows anyway in the working environment.
2 "Bridge has been made a mug of by a mate". Sam you need to think about this a bit more. On the one hand, you state that Bridge has done absolutely nothing wrong so the criticism/penalties should be pitched at Terry. Right by your own logic? So why is Bridge punishing himself by turning down the honour of possibly playing in a world cup winning side (unlikely I know).

"In my opinion working alongside Terry again, as if nothing has happened, makes him look professional, yes, but also a bit of a mug that lets people walk all over him.....a bit of a pussy, as it were"

This strikes me as nonsense. First of all something has happened. Terry has had bucketloads of shit pored over him in the press and lost the captaincy of England. If you extrapolate the view about being a bit of a pussy, in your world there would never have been a Northern Ireland peace process. There would never be a reconciliation over any argument big or tiny. The people who have guts in this world are the likes of Adams and Paisley who can miraculously get over their apparent hatred of each other based on friends and relations being slaughtered, and work together to make something better. In your world friends who have a falling out would never get together because of this child-like "loss of face".

This is my last words to you on this subject. We clearly disagree and I have nowt more to say.

Cheers
D

[quote]There are a huge number of assumptions you are making here.
1. Upset/embarrassed. If he had already split up with his girlfriend before Terry got involved in a relationship with her, then he has no reason to be embarrassed about this. His girlfriend is not owned by Bridge. If this relationship started whilst they were still together, I can obviously see why he is upset about it.[/quote]

An assumption? Yes, I suppose so. But I think it a reasonable assumption; it's a much more reasonable assumption than the assumptions of 'self-obsession' and 'gutlessness' you accused him of. An 'idiot' as well, if I remember rightly.

Unlike you I'm assuming he's left hurt and embarrassed by the whole affair, while you assume he's self-obsessed, gutless and idiotic. Since neither of us know the facts of this love triangle I suppose criticising eachother over our assumptions would be a little hypocritical. What I will say, though, is that my assumptions are nowhere near as cynical as yours! What's Bridge done to make you think so lowly of him?

[quote]2. "he's in no way at fault for the whole thing" How on earth do you know that? For all you know Bridge could be the partner from hell - obsessive, bullying, possessive etc.[/quote]

Again, a very reasonable assumption. To be at fault for the 'whole thing' he would have had to force Terry and his ex to get it on, only to sulk about it afterwards. While not impossible, I think it improbable enough to not even consider it seriously.

[quote]Given that neither Terry, Bridge nor Perroncell have gone public on this, where do your comments on this relationship and its timing come from - the tabloid press? Ah yes, very reliable sources.[/quote]

Reliable enough for Terry to get an injunction; reliable enough for neither Terry or Perroncell to deny the stories.

[quote]2. "Morale, trust and camaraderie". I remember Andy Cole and Sheringham at Man Utd absolutely hated each other and did not speak one word to each other. I do not know the reason but it did not stop them playing effectively together on the pitch despite their personal animosity.[/quote]

They weren't banging eachother's ex girlfriends. Since you mention Man Utd it reminded me of something a wise friend of mine alluded to only yesterday: Tommy Docherty, while manager of Man Utd in the '70s was known to be shafting the physio's wife, which led to his sacking. A physio and manager in no way have to have the same close relationship as a left back and central defender to on a pitch and yet the club at the time assumed, as I do, that these two professionals couldn't work together. Maybe they could have, but what's clear is that they made the decision based on the good of the club........as did, in my opinion, Bridge did with England.

[quote]1. "your average joe may still be able to comfort" This is often incorrect. I have worked in offices where individuals had had a relationship with the wife of someone else. In those office situations, typically, everyone knows anyway in the working environment.[/quote]

Clearly not the same thing. Bridge is a high profile footballer that has had his ex-girlfriend's, and ex-team mates affair in the national papers every day for nearly a month (maybe longer?). Radio stations, magazines, post office queues and schoolyard children all know and talk about it. You're intelligent enough to see the differences here, surely.

[quote]2 "Bridge has been made a mug of by a mate". Sam you need to think about this a bit more. On the one hand, you state that Bridge has done absolutely nothing wrong so the criticism/penalties should be pitched at Terry. Right by your own logic? So why is Bridge punishing himself by turning down the honour of possibly playing in a world cup winning side (unlikely I know).[/quote]

Again, my reasonable assumption is that he's both too hurt and embarrassed to play alongside Terry in the England setup. Maybe he thinks the story will die a slow death if he pulls out now while if he joined up with the national squad every interview of the players, every training session photographed and every match played there will be questions and scrutiny about their relationship, and how just one pass that wasn't given was a result of them 'not getting on', or every ball into the box that wasn't dealt with was because 'Terry and Bridge just aren't communicating like they should'......and all that bollocks you know will be speculated. It'll be more of a circus than anyone wants and maybe Bridge sees that and doesn't need it right now. Of course, it could be that Bridge sees this as a good opportunity to get back at Terry in some way, who knows? Again, Bridge has never done anything for me to think so cynically of him, which you seem keen to do.

[quote]This strikes me as nonsense. First of all something has happened. Terry has had bucketloads of shit pored over him in the press and lost the captaincy of England. If you extrapolate the view about being a bit of a pussy, in your world there would never have been a Northern Ireland peace process.[/quote]

Lol! Do me a favour, David! We're not talking about mediation between politicians when lives are at risk here! We're talking about footballers and personal relationships! I just don't see how you're overly keen on berating Bridge's reactions and decisions over all this.

Again, I like to think Bridge has made these decisions due to anger, hurt and feelings of betrayal from two people who were very close to him. You, on the other hand, seem keen on calling him unprofessional, idiotic, self-obsessed and gutless. Like you say, we're both entitled to our opinions but I really can't understand your cynicism here.

Sam
I do come across posts on this forum when I think why the bloody hell do I bother with this. Your last post was one of these.
This really really is my last post in this thread. Honest. Given you appear to belong to the Reggie Perrin, I must have the last post in the thread syndrome, no doubt you will come back with another load of assumptions.

Never mind, I have done my bit and will resist the temptation to respond.

I have put my responses in italics. In the very unlikely event that someone else will try to read this lot - my original post paragraphs start with Quote:; Sam's reply follows. My comments on his reply are in italics.

Cheers
D

Quote:

There are a huge number of assumptions you are making here.
1. Upset/embarrassed. If he had already split up with his girlfriend before Terry got involved in a relationship with her, then he has no reason to be embarrassed about this. His girlfriend is not owned by Bridge. If this relationship started whilst they were still together, I can obviously see why he is upset about it.


An assumption? Yes, I suppose so. But I think it a reasonable assumption; it's a much more reasonable assumption than the assumptions of 'self-obsession' and 'gutlessness' you accused him of. An 'idiot' as well, if I remember rightly.

First let me explain an extremely, basic misunderstanding in your terminology. I know Bridge had a girlfriend. He split up with her. Allegedly Terry had an affair with her. Terry is not liked by Bridge. He has refused to play for England rather than be part of a team with Terry. My OPINION based on the above FACTS (I include the allegedly for legal reasons only) is that Bridge is behaving in a gutless manner. It is not an ASSUMPTION as you suggest, it is an opinion I am entitled to hold. You are entitled obviously to disagree with my opinion.
You believe that Bridge is hurt and embarrassed. You are not giving an opinion here so much as you are ASSUMING that you have an insight into his feelings. This insight is based on nothing other than the tabloid press. You may be right. You may not be right as to his feelings.

What I will say, though, is that my assumptions are nowhere near as cynical as yours.

See comment above. I am not making assumptions, I am giving you an opinion on the very few things that we can take as facts in this saga.

Quote:

2. "he's in no way at fault for the whole thing" How on earth do you know that? For all you know Bridge could be the partner from hell - obsessive, bullying, possessive etc.


Again, a very reasonable assumption. To be at fault for the 'whole thing' he would have had to force Terry and his ex to get it on, only to sulk about it afterwards. While not impossible, I think it improbable enough to not even consider it seriously.

I will translate your response above. You have no idea whether he is ?not at all at fault, partially at fault, wholly at fault? for the split with his girlfriend. You evidently do not realise this, but you are clueless in this matter. Unless of course you want to start quoting from the Sun and various exclusives with someone ?close to Wayne?. You appear to have been suckered by this modern day obsession with celebrity and their emotions into believing that you understand what they are feeling.

Quote:

Given that neither Terry, Bridge nor Perroncell have gone public on this, where do your comments on this relationship and its timing come from - the tabloid press? Ah yes, very reliable sources.


Reliable enough for Terry to get an injunction; reliable enough for neither Terry or Perroncell to deny the stories.
Injunctions are very popular in the UK for many stories that are regarded as an infringement of privacy. It is extremely silly to assume that because an injunction is obtained, that then guarantees that everything that is going to be printed is correct. Sometimes injunctions are obtained by people who believe a story to be both harmful and untrue. Given that neither Terry nor Perroncell have spoken about this publicly at all, you cannot read acceptance into that silence. You can, of course, assume it, given that this is one of your seemingly favourite pastimes.

Quote:

2. "Morale, trust and camaraderie". I remember Andy Cole and Sheringham at Man Utd absolutely hated each other and did not speak one word to each other. I do not know the reason but it did not stop them playing effectively together on the pitch despite their personal animosity.


They weren't banging eachother's ex girlfriends. Since you mention Man Utd it reminded me of something a wise friend of mine alluded to only yesterday: Tommy Docherty, while manager of Man Utd in the '70s was known to be shafting the physio's wife, which led to his sacking. A physio and manager in no way have to have the same close relationship as a left back and central defender to on a pitch and yet the club at the time assumed, as I do, that these two professionals couldn't work together. Maybe they could have, but what's clear is that they made the decision based on the good of the club........as did, in my opinion, Bridge did with England.

I use the Cole/Sheringham story as an example of how two international footballers can sink their differences and get along. Simples
Quote:

1. "your average joe may still be able to comfort" This is often incorrect. I have worked in offices where individuals had had a relationship with the wife of someone else. In those office situations, typically, everyone knows anyway in the working environment.

Clearly not the same thing. Bridge is a high profile footballer that has had his ex-girlfriend's, and ex-team mates affair in the national papers every day for nearly a month (maybe longer?). Radio stations, magazines, post office queues and schoolyard children all know and talk about it. You're intelligent enough to see the differences here, surely.

On the contrary, Premier League footballers should be in a better position to cope than joe public. They have media training. They have been interviewed thousands of times in their career..

Quote:

2 "Bridge has been made a mug of by a mate". Sam you need to think about this a bit more. On the one hand, you state that Bridge has done absolutely nothing wrong so the criticism/penalties should be pitched at Terry. Right by your own logic? So why is Bridge punishing himself by turning down the honour of possibly playing in a world cup winning side (unlikely I know).


Again, my reasonable assumption is that he's both too hurt and embarrassed to play alongside Terry in the England setup. Maybe he thinks the story will die a slow death if he pulls out now while if he joined up with the national squad every interview of the players, every training session photographed and every match played there will be questions and scrutiny about their relationship, and how just one pass that wasn't given was a result of them 'not getting on', or every ball into the box that wasn't dealt with was because 'Terry and Bridge just aren't communicating like they should'......and all that bollocks you know will be speculated. It'll be more of a circus than anyone wants and maybe Bridge sees that and doesn't need it right now. Of course, it could be that Bridge sees this as a good opportunity to get back at Terry in some way, who knows? Again, Bridge has never done anything for me to think so cynically of him, which you seem keen to do.

?My reasonable assumption is..? Well it?s always a start when you think yourself to be reasonable, Sam. All of the above paragraph is complete and utter guesswork. Thought of writing short stories?

Quote:

This strikes me as nonsense. First of all something has happened. Terry has had bucketloads of shit pored over him in the press and lost the captaincy of England. If you extrapolate the view about being a bit of a pussy, in your world there would never have been a Northern Ireland peace process.


Lol! Do me a favour, David! We're not talking about mediation between politicians when lives are at risk here! We're talking about footballers and personal relationships! I just don't see how you're overly keen on berating Bridge's reactions and decisions over all this.

Like a lot of posters, you ignore the fundamental point I am making and concentrate on one small aspect of it. As you know, I stated the following ?If you extrapolate the view about being a bit of a pussy, ?... there would never be a reconciliation over any argument big or tiny. In your world friends who have a falling out would never get together because of this child-like "loss of face".

I really can't understand your cynicism here.

You need to re-check what the word cynicism means. I think both Terry and Bridge should take up the offer of FPA mediation and sort this out for the greater good of playing for their country.

A right pair of big girl's blouses.

The whole saga is the stuff of the playground, and they're like a couple of silly teenage schoolboys who've fallen out over some daft bint in the year below.

- Eric

[quote]Sam
I do come across posts on this forum when I think why the bloody hell do I bother with this.[/quote]

But you do.

[quote]Given you appear to belong to the Reggie Perrin, I must have the last post in the thread syndrome, no doubt you will come back with another load of assumptions.[/quote]

Cheap and pointless shot, David. No, really.......

[quote]First let me explain an extremely, basic misunderstanding in your terminology.[/quote]

Basic misunderstanding in my terminology? Where?

[quote]I know Bridge had a girlfriend. He split up with her. Allegedly Terry had an affair with her. Terry is not liked by Bridge. He has refused to play for England rather than be part of a team with Terry. My OPINION based on the above FACTS (I include the allegedly for legal reasons only) is that Bridge is behaving in a gutless manner. It is not an ASSUMPTION as you suggest, it is an opinion I am entitled to hold.[/quote]

You said, on 02-28-10 16:32: "He hurts himself by refusing to play for England in a World Cup Year. Like I said, gutless!"

On 02-28-10 17:07 you followed it with: "That doesn't stop Bridge being a gutless, self-obsessed idiot."

I don't know how you think you can wriggle out of your hypocritical stance here. I made assumptions and admitted them; you make assumptions and think that by calling them opinions you can get off lightly. As far as I'm aware something can be both an opinion and an assumption; they're not mutually exclusive..........are they?

Calling Bridge 'gutless' is an opinion, sure, but that opinion is based on assuming Bridge has a lack of courage. Unless you're a mind reader, or Bridge has specifically told you his thinking, you're opinion is based on an assumption that Bridge is lacking in courage. This may be true, but you cannot know for sure and so you're assuming as much as I have.

[quote]You believe that Bridge is hurt and embarrassed. You are not giving an opinion here so much as you are ASSUMING that you have an insight into his feelings.[/quote]

That's right. At least I admit I'm assuming. My argument is that they're reasonable assumptions. You deny yours altogether.

[quote]This insight is based on nothing other than the tabloid press.[/quote]

Now, that's an assumption. Could it be that humans are unlike most other animal species in that they can place themselves in others' shoes, so to speak, and that my opinions and assumptions concerning Bridge is an attempt at understanding his mindset, emotions and motives? That thing, of course, is theory of mind and basic empathy. Has the media influenced my opinions? Probably. But don't assume I'm assuming based on 'nothing other than the tabloid press.' Tut-tut.

[quote]I will translate your response above. You have no idea whether he is ?not at all at fault, partially at fault, wholly at fault? for the split with his girlfriend. You evidently do not realise this, but you are clueless in this matter.[/quote]

Very condescending, David. I thought better of you than that. Of course I have no idea in what his real feelings are and I'm pretty sure I've admitted my assumptions and said as much before your uncalled for condescension. My argument to you is that you seem somewhat just as confident about his motives and thought processes as I am......if not more so.

[quote]You appear to have been suckered by this modern day obsession with celebrity and their emotions into believing that you understand what they are feeling. [/quote]

And you appear to think the worst of people. I appear to be a sucker for celebrity gossip and Bridge appears to be self-obsessed, idiotic and gutless. All harmless opinion, of course. I don't know how you can seriously criticise me for believing I know what he's feeling when in calling him 'gutless' you yourself falls into the same category. Again, you apparently know how scared Bridge is to deem him gutless.

[quote]Injunctions are very popular in the UK for many stories that are regarded as an infringement of privacy. It is extremely silly to assume that because an injunction is obtained, that then guarantees that everything that is going to be printed is correct.[/quote]

I wouldn't call it silly at all. Terry's lost his captaincy and so if these allegations had no truth in them whatsoever why is it silly of me to assume his guilt? None of the papers are even using the term 'alleged' any more. Of course, if I was part of a jury in attempting to judge Terry's guilt I'd need more evidence than a few stories Terry, or his lover, haven't denied, but to call my assumptions silly is....well.....silly. Do you think there's a good probability he's innocent then?

[quote]You can, of course, assume it, given that this is one of your seemingly favourite pastimes.[/quote]

I can assume it and admitted it. If my pastime is assuming things, your's is assuming and denying you're doing so! As Keith would say, 'L O L'.

[quote]I use the Cole/Sheringham story as an example of how two international footballers can sink their differences and get along. Simples[/quote]

And I show the Tommy Docherty story as an example of two professional men being deemed unable to work with one another due to an affair. Sheringham and Cole didn't get on because their personalities clashed, or it was over something most people would deem trivial (it was over Sheringham not supporting Cole on England duty, wasn't it? I heard Cole give an interview on 5live about it and it was something along those lines). Your best mate shagging the mother of your child as soon as your back's turned may be trivial to you, and many others, but I at least acknowledge that it isn't to many. Simples.

[quote]On the contrary, Premier League footballers should be in a better position to cope than joe public. They have media training. They have been interviewed thousands of times in their career.. [/quote]

Now THAT is an opinion, and you're entitled to it. On the other hand, I don't think they're taught about how to deal with relationship breakdowns and team mates bed-hopping with ex girlfriends and mothers of your children. In my opinion footballers are trained to say about 5 lines that cover most football scenarios that crop up. Training, yes, but hardly thorough.

[quote]?My reasonable assumption is..? Well it?s always a start when you think yourself to be reasonable, Sam. All of the above paragraph is complete and utter guesswork. Thought of writing short stories? [/quote]

Oooh! Bitchiness like that and you have the cheek of likening me to Keith Rasputin! I'm guessing you had no real point that you felt needed a response here as you never argued why my assumptions were unreasonable.

[quote]Like a lot of posters, you ignore the fundamental point I am making and concentrate on one small aspect of it.[/quote]

I got your point and didn't ignore it. I just thought your point was a little, well, pointless. We all know some people can put aside differences, David. But if they can't it doesn't always follow that they're idiotic, self-obsessed and gutless.....mmmmmkay?

[quote]In your world friends who have a falling out would never get together because of this child-like "loss of face".[/quote]

Another assumption, David. In my world some people deal with conflict differently to others; some are more emotional than others; some are more laid back and forgiving than others; some relationship breakdowns affect some people differently than others..........you get my point I'm sure. This should give you a clue about how I might have a little more sympathy and understanding towards Bridge than you seem to do.

Come on, Eric! How many school yard bints did you have a child with?!