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"Denying the party with the most votes a chance to put across any compromises would go against his idea of a fairer electoral system. He can't bang on about fairness and then just ignore the fact that the people of this country have cast more votes for the Tories than any other party. I don't like it, but that's democracy for you."

I disagree with the above. People vote for policies largely and the parties that supply the policies they warm to. The Centre Left parties (Labour, Lib Dem) received 50+% of the votes. The right wing Tories received 36%. You could just as easily argue that given the constitution (the Prime Minister gets first dibs at trying to form the government) and the relative closeness of Lib Dems/Labour policies compared to the COnservatives together with the % splits - Right wing, Centre left etc, that Clegg/Brown should have been the first to try to cut a deal.

"Given my (maybe erroneous) presumption, what do you think about a Lib/Lab pact? Considering you've bashed Clegg from pillar to post this past month how do you feel about Mr. Brown snuggling up to the Cleggmeister?"

I voted Labour. I bashed Clegg from pillar to post because I think a lot of people are very naive about Clegg himself and the Lib Dems. Like I have said, you dont seem to know what you are going to end up with when you vote Lib Dem. The current events seem to back this up. THe Lib Dem/Tory discussions have been going on for over a day now and there seems no sign that they are going to fall apart.
I have no problem about the Lib Dems and Labour working together because they do have a lot in common. I do think it would be important that if they are going to form a coalition then they should draw up a very detailed agreement. And like you and Bob, I despise the Tories.

Cheers
D

Hi
Fair comment Bob. Maybe I have allowed Sam's enthusiasm for Cleggie to bleed across to my take on you.

"I may have said I'd be voting Lib Dem this time, but that doesn't actually make me a Lib Dem!"

Fair enough, but if Cleggie cuts a deal with Cameron it makes you a voter who has been conned, surely? And worse still, potentially hundreds of thousands of people like you.

"I said I'd be voting Lib Dem this time because I felt them to be, currently, more radical than Labour. "

We will see by early next week whether you were actually correct or whether Cleggie has thrown off his radical clothes to reveal a pinstripe bankers suit!

"The Tories are going to make a complete balls up of the economy, and piss off millions of people in the process by swingeing cuts that affect 90% of the country while giving even bigger tax breaks to the richest 10%. They will be hounded out. If the Lib Dems are their allies, they too will be hounded out."

But in the meantime, millions might have been totally shafted for no fault of their own and it potentially may be the Lib Dems have provided a situation in which this could happen.

CHeers
D

[quote]I disagree with the above. People vote for policies largely and the parties that supply the policies they warm to. The Centre Left parties (Labour, Lib Dem) received 50+% of the votes. The right wing Tories received 36%. You could just as easily argue that given the constitution (the Prime Minister gets first dibs at trying to form the government) and the relative closeness of Lib Dems/Labour policies compared to the COnservatives together with the % splits - Right wing, Centre left etc, that Clegg/Brown should have been the first to try to cut a deal.[/quote]

Yes, I agree, but you cannot get away from the fact that the Conservatives got more votes than any other single party. Given that, they should get first refusal. I don't see that as unfair or undemocratic. Gordon Brown may well still be PM, but he can't force anyone to talk to him first, no matter what the constitution says. Nick Clegg made it clear before the election that he would talk to the party with the most votes first and he's stuck to that promise (which the Lib Dem party agreed with). If he went back on his word you'd be using it as further proof of his hypocrisy. 'Fucked if he does, fucked if he doesn't.'

[quote]I voted Labour. I bashed Clegg from pillar to post because I think a lot of people are very naive about Clegg himself and the Lib Dems.[/quote]

A very arrogant position, David. Nearly 1 in 4 of voters voted Lib Dem.

[quote]Like I have said, you dont seem to know what you are going to end up with when you vote Lib Dem.[/quote]

Well, I could just as reasonably say that about Labour now we have a hung parliament. Where was the promised referendum on the Euro (twice?). No one from Labour mentioned reforming the electoral system leading up to the election but minutes into the counting process senior Labour figures were making out how it was about time we did! Considering the Labour Party was the party that lost the most voters it seems there are far more previous Labour supporters who feel they were naive voting Labour in 2005.

Before you think that's a rant at the Labour party, it isn't. I've backed them through both unpopular wars and the recession on these very boards, with many many posters. I just don't buy the 'Lib Dem voters are naive' crap.

[quote]I have no problem about the Lib Dems and Labour working together because they do have a lot in common. I do think it would be important that if they are going to form a coalition then they should draw up a very detailed agreement. And like you and Bob, I despise the Tories.[/quote]

That's good to know. But I'd have thought you'd have wanted Gordy to stay away from that 'hypocrite', Clegg. He'll get Gordy into bother!

[quote]Fair enough, but if Cleggie cuts a deal with Cameron it makes you a voter who has been conned, surely?[/quote]

Not at all. Clegg said in the event of a hung parliament he'd speak to the party who acquired the most votes first. His party backed agreed. No 'conning' at all.

"Quote:

I voted Labour. I bashed Clegg from pillar to post because I think a lot of people are very naive about Clegg himself and the Lib Dems.


A very arrogant position, David. Nearly 1 in 4 of voters voted Lib Dem.

Maybe it's an arrogant position. If Clegg does a deal with Cameron, it will, of course, be completely justified!

"That's good to know. But I'd have thought you'd have wanted Gordy to stay away from that 'hypocrite', Clegg. He'll get Gordy into bother!"

If you never worked with a hypocrite in parliament, I would be surprised if you got much done at all! That's why I state that it is very important to get a detailed policy agreement if the Labour party do have a coalition with Cleggie. Pin the bastard down!happy!

Good night
D

Sam read my sentence again.

I said if Cleggie CUTS a deal. That is a world of difference from committing to merely speaking to a party first if they got the most votes because it ties in with your concept of "electoral fairness".



Cheers
D

I've never seen a 3rd party actually being pumped up by the media as potential victors like the liberal democrats were in this election

Where they ended up was actually as good as it was ever going to get

Holding the balance of power assuming labour will oppose everything the conservatives attempt to get through


I agree they lost votes for saying they'd work with either side post election but then they were never going to win so not much lost

[quote]If Clegg does a deal with Cameron, it will, of course, be completely justified![/quote]

Bollocks! That would all depend on the deal! Cleggie might have Cameron changing his ringtone to and listening to Billy Bragg LPs in no time.

Amazing!

Too summarise then.

1. You hate the Tory party
2 You vote for the Lib Dems
3. The Lib Dems and Tory party have manifestos diametrically opposed on numerous issues. Hence your attitude in points 1 and 2 above.
4 The Lib Dems prop up the Tory party and allow Cameron to be Prime Minister
5. You are not disgusted

With enemies like you, the Tories dont need friends

[quote]Too summarise then.

1. You hate the Tory party
2 You vote for the Lib Dems
3. The Lib Dems and Tory party have manifestos diametrically opposed on numerous issues. Hence your attitude in points 1 and 2 above.
4 The Lib Dems prop up the Tory party and allow Cameron to be Prime Minister
5. You are not disgusted[/quote]

All perfectly correct though you failed to include the obvious caveat to #4. As I've said numerous times, and which you somehow take-in, but fail to mention after that information has gone through some strange filtering system within your head, I want electoral reform. I do not support any Tory/Lib Dem pact, or 'propping up' without that.

My whole point, which again you seem to take in but not acknowledge here, is that the Tories deserve first refusal, and Clegg is obligated to talk to the party with the most votes first - in my opinion at least. Giving them the opportunity talk, and actually propping them up without gaining any political advantage at all are two very different things which you seem to have mixed up. You're getting ahead of yourself and a little excited, David. If Clegg makes a deal without electoral reform I don't think the Lib Dem party will follow him. I could be wrong, and if I am I'll be right behind you, but until that happens I think Clegg is doing the right thing.