egafd.com

David

No he did not, you seem to be forgetting that Brown abolished the 10p starting rate of tax, then cut in the basic rate from 22p in the pound to 20p in the pound.

This effected low-paid workers and low-income people who don't get the working income tax credits. It was evident in my office where the low paid secretaries and admin staff saw the NET they took home each month go down on their pay slips, while the better paid members of staff saw it go up.

This was a true Gordon Brown fuck up, directly penalizing the poor and benefiting the rich, and caused a very rare occurrence Brown admitting he got it wrong.

So your comment ?They certainly did a hell of a lot more for the less well off than a Tory government has ever done!? Is wrong, Brown liked to punish the poor as well, while helping the rich, including himself.

"So your comment ?They certainly did a hell of a lot more for the less well off than a Tory government has ever done!? Is wrong, Brown liked to punish the poor as well, while helping the rich, including himself."

Nonsense. I am not arguing that Brown didnt make any mistakes. YOu mention the scrapping of the 10p rate. That was one of his errors.

However if you consider the following, you can see that my statement above is correct.

WINTER FUEL ALLOWANCE
Derek Heaps, 76, from Castle Donington, Derby
"Before the winter fuel allowance was introduced my wife Valerie and I would worry ourselves through the winter months. I have a type of leukaemia that thins my blood, so it's important to stay warm, but we were having to think before putting the heating on because it cost so much."

THE DISABILTY DISCRIMINATION ACT
Rick Williams, 58, a business consultant from Brighton, is blind "In my view the Disability Discrimination Act is one of the most powerful pieces of disability legislation ever passed.

What the Act does, for the first time, is put my needs at the centre of the way public bodies do things, not me try to fit in with what they want. It is one of the best things Labour has done and it will improve the life of every disabled person in Britain."

BAN ON CLUSTER BOMBS
Thomas Nash, Cluster Munition Coalition.

"The ban on cluster bombs in 2008 is the most significant achievement in humanitarian and disarmament affairs in a decade. Gordon Brown's decision to place humanitarian imperatives over short-term military interests was a deciding factor in securing the global ban."


THE MINIMUM WAGE
Stuart Barrett, 37, administrator from Brighton "I'll never forget how Labour stood up for workers like me, who, before 1999, were paid as low a wage as employers wanted to give us, which for me at one point was just ?2 an hour. When the minimum wage was introduced, the difference it made to my life was immense. I was able to save and plan for the future. I have even managed to save the fees for a university course."


MATERNITY PAY
Pam Lacey, Chair of the Association of Breastfeeding Mothers "Increasing paid maternity leave is one of the best things Labour has done for families.

There are many documented benefits of mothers spending more time with their children when they are very young."

PEACE IN NORTHERN IRELAND
Peter Sheridan, former Assistant Chief Constable of Northern Ireland Police Service, now CEO of charity Cooperation Ireland. "Without Labour's commitment to peace, the last 10 years would have seen many more deaths and a lot more violence.

We're in the situation we find ourselves in today because of Tony Blair's personal effort and energy. And I believe Gordon Brown is just as committed to finishing the work, underpinning the political settlement by ending sectarianism once and for all."

RECORD RESULTS IN SCHOOLS
Chris Keates, General Secretary NASUWT "Labour have put unprecedented investment into education.

They have transformed school buildings and allowed teachers and headteachers to focus on teaching.

There are now thousands more support staff and a raft of measures on discipline has supported teachers."

MORE STUDENTS THAN EVER
Wes Streeting, 26, NUS President "The school I attended under a Tory Government went into special measures. I think people forget how bad things were. Even as kids, we got the sense that we were not well served. I'm one of the many people that have benefited from the government's commitment to expanding the number of university places. When you look at the last 10 years, the way Labour have improved education is one of the best things they have achieved."

PATERNITY LEAVE
Edward Davie, 34, South London "My daughter Julie was born in July last year and I got to be around for the first moments and days of her life and that will stand her in good stead for the rest of her life."


THE TREBLING OF AID
El Khidir Daloum, Save the Children Regional Director, Latin America, Middle East & South East Europe "I have seen children who are in schools in Save the Children programmes who wouldn't have had the chance of an education, were it not for that increase in aid. And I've sat and talked with children who wouldn't be alive today, if it weren't for that help."

THE CANCELLING OF DEBT
Danny Smith, Jubilee Campaign "In the last 12 years, Labour has made huge steps forward towards the goal of making poverty history, much more than I believe the Tories would have if they had been in power. I believe that many thousands of children in the world's poorest countries have had the chance to live because of what Labour has done."

CIVIL PARTNERSHIPS
Paul Burston, 44, lesbian and gay editor of Time Out magazine "I never imagined in my wildest dreams that civil partnerships would one day become a reality. It always frustrated me that gay and lesbian couples didn't have the same rights and privileges as straight couples. But in September 2007 I 'married' my partner Paulo."

THE CREATION OF SURESTART
Michelle Holland, 33, North Anston "I take my daughter to the Surestart Centre in Kiveton Park, Sheffield. The centre opened in March and is purpose-built with plenty of equipment for the children. The staff are very supportive and there's great advice for first-time mums, like me. I only wish more people knew about the great things Labour have done for childcare."

SHORTEST WAITING TIMES IN NHS HISTORY
Michael Summers, vice chair of the Patients' Association "The Government have done a lot of good and things have improved. Most people know that waiting times are now around four hours, which is a great achievement. More needs to be done, but we appreciate that Labour are working hard to make things better."

DEVOLUTION
Huw Lewis, Welsh Assembly member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney "Thanks to devolution the country has much more confidence. Even the doubters have to admit now people are talking about a distinctive Welsh future in a way they never did before."

THE CANCER GUARANTEE
Michael Summers, vice chair of the Patients' Association "We appreciate that the Government has been concentrating on improving waiting times for cancer patients from diagnosis to surgery."

HALF A MILLION CHILDREN OUT OF POVERTY
Kate Green, chief executive, Child Poverty Action Group "Today, half a million fewer children are in poverty than in 1999. That's not happened by accident, it's the result of determination and investment. The Government should be congratulated on all it has achieved so far."

CHILD BENEFIT AT RECORD LEVELS
Belinda Phipps, chief executive of the National Childbirth Trust "Financial support for parents has steadily increased since Labour came to power. This is good news since it helps to relieve the financial pressure on parents when starting a family."

THE SOCIAL CHAPTER
Tuc General Secretary Brendan Barber "Joining Europe's Social Chapter was a great deal for everyone at work, with new rights for parents, time off for holidays, consultation before redundancy, and better protection against unfair discrimination. Without these European rights adopted by Labour, Britain would be a worse place to work."

THE FIRST CLIMATE CHANGE ACT
Mike Childs, Head of Climate Change at Friends of the Earth "The Climate Change Act makes the UK the first country in the world to have a national law limiting its carbon dioxide emissions. More importantly, it's in line with what science says we need to do to prevent dangerous climate change."

CRIME DOWN BY A THIRD
Spokesman for the Police Federation "There's more prosperity in the country, so there's less need for crime. We're especially grateful to have seen the number of police officers increase under Labour."

David Johnson knows his shit man. I gotta say when i read Mr Johnsons post they are always interesting.

I get the impression that Labour lost because a lot of people didnt want to waste their votes on the BNP or they saw the Tories and Labour as very similar and really wanted change.

Normally Labour would have got my vote but this year no.

If I am going to get fucked in the arse (metaphorically speaking of course)then Lib Dems had me convinced they were going to do it gently instead they are just laughing boys to the Tories comedy as far as I see.

You are missing the point, your statement is ?They certainly did a hell of a lot more for the less well off than a Tory government has ever done? I am saying this is wrong because Labour fucked the poor just as much as the Lib Cons, just in a different more subtle way.

I am not saying the poor haven?t been fucked by the latest Lib Con Government, I am saying they were fucked by Labour and are being fucked again.

Unfortunately society likes to shit on the little guy. History shows us the poor are kept poor and the rich are kept rich and very few (but some) manage to go from poor to rich or rich to poor.

Interestingly society needs a class and wealth divide, a class and wealth divide is important to the structure of society, however it is important that the poor are not too poor and the rich are not too rich.

"David Johnson knows his shit man. I gotta say when i read Mr Johnsons post they are always interesting."

Many thanks, OEJ. As always, the cheque is in the post !happy!

Cheers
D

I agree there is no need for people who study urban traffic flows, work in dole offices, equality advisors etc in the private sector, but I am sure they can use a computer type on word, use excel make reports, things they would have done as an urban traffic flow studier etc, these skills will lead to other employment.

If you or I were made unemployed tomorrow, would we sign on and become part of the unemployed, or would we get jobs immediately?

From your arguing you are obviously an intelligent man, so I have no doubt you would be employed immediately, I myself have never been unemployed for mote than a few weeks, and can?t ever see that changing, would I get paid what I get paid now? Unlikely, but it would be more than unemployment benefit, and I would believe in my ability to rise up in the new company.

Out of that 1.3 million that are going to lose their jobs, surely you must believe a percentage (possibly large percentage) like you can find other work quickly, they may not get paid as much, but they will not be destitute, to many public sector workers are over paid for the hours they do and the skill set they have, a shake may not be a bad thing.

I do sometimes wonder if I am only communicating with myself on some threads.

Let's recap. I started by stating about the Labour government -

"?They certainly did a hell of a lot more for the less well off than a Tory government has ever done!? This obviously refers to both the 1979-1997 Tory govt. and what we know after about 6 weeks of the Lib Dem Cons.

You said my statement above was wrong. In response I listed below all the things which the Labour government did which HELPED the less well-off. For you to prove that my statement is wrong, you need to give me a list of all the wonderful things Thatcher did for the poor and the Lib Dem Cons are looking to do which exceeds the Labour list.

So instead of giving me some completely unsubstantiated opinions, give me some facts, some laws passed by Tory governments to back up what you are saying.

I await your list with interest.

Cheers
D

WINTER FUEL ALLOWANCE
Derek Heaps, 76, from Castle Donington, Derby
"Before the winter fuel allowance was introduced my wife Valerie and I would worry ourselves through the winter months. I have a type of leukaemia that thins my blood, so it's important to stay warm, but we were having to think before putting the heating on because it cost so much."

THE DISABILTY DISCRIMINATION ACT
Rick Williams, 58, a business consultant from Brighton, is blind "In my view the Disability Discrimination Act is one of the most powerful pieces of disability legislation ever passed.

THE MINIMUM WAGE
Stuart Barrett, 37, administrator from Brighton "I'll never forget how Labour stood up for workers like me, who, before 1999, were paid as low a wage as employers wanted to give us, which for me at one point was just ?2 an hour. When the minimum wage was introduced, the difference it made to my life was immense. I was able to save and plan for the future. I have even managed to save the fees for a university course."

MATERNITY PAY
Pam Lacey, Chair of the Association of Breastfeeding Mothers "Increasing paid maternity leave is one of the best things Labour has done for families.

RECORD RESULTS IN SCHOOLS
Chris Keates, General Secretary NASUWT "Labour have put unprecedented investment into education.

MORE STUDENTS THAN EVER
Wes Streeting, 26, NUS President "The school I attended under a Tory Government went into special measures. I think people forget how bad things were. Even as kids, we got the sense that we were not well served. I'm one of the many people that have benefited from the government's commitment to expanding the number of university places. When you look at the last 10 years, the way Labour have improved education is one of the best things they have achieved."

PATERNITY LEAVE
Edward Davie, 34, South London "My daughter Julie was born in July last year and I got to be around for the first moments and days of her life and that will stand her in good stead for the rest of her life."

THE CREATION OF SURESTART
Michelle Holland, 33, North Anston "I take my daughter to the Surestart Centre in Kiveton Park, Sheffield. The centre opened in March and is purpose-built with plenty of equipment for the children. The staff are very supportive and there's great advice for first-time mums, like me. I only wish more people knew about the great things Labour have done for childcare."

SHORTEST WAITING TIMES IN NHS HISTORY
Michael Summers, vice chair of the Patients' Association "The Government have done a lot of good and things have improved. Most people know that waiting times are now around four hours, which is a great achievement. More needs to be done, but we appreciate that Labour are working hard to make things better."

THE CANCER GUARANTEE
Michael Summers, vice chair of the Patients' Association "We appreciate that the Government has been concentrating on improving waiting times for cancer patients from diagnosis to surgery."

HALF A MILLION CHILDREN OUT OF POVERTY
Kate Green, chief executive, Child Poverty Action Group "Today, half a million fewer children are in poverty than in 1999. That's not happened by accident, it's the result of determination and investment. The Government should be congratulated on all it has achieved so far."

CHILD BENEFIT AT RECORD LEVELS
Belinda Phipps, chief executive of the National Childbirth Trust "Financial support for parents has steadily increased since Labour came to power. This is good news since it helps to relieve the financial pressure on parents when starting a family."

THE SOCIAL CHAPTER
Tuc General Secretary Brendan Barber "Joining Europe's Social Chapter was a great deal for everyone at work, with new rights for parents, time off for holidays, consultation before redundancy, and better protection against unfair discrimination. Without these European rights adopted by Labour, Britain would be a worse place to work."

CRIME DOWN BY A THIRD
Spokesman for the Police Federation "There's more prosperity in the country, so there's less need for crime. We're especially grateful to have seen the number of police officers increase under Labour."

"Out of that 1.3 million that are going to lose their jobs, surely you must believe a percentage (possibly large percentage) like you can find other work quickly,"

I believe some will find work. What I dont believe is that the private sector will take up all the slack and find between 2 and 2.5 million new jobs in the next five years which is what the Lib Dem Con government is saying.

And increasingly I would expect that those private sector jobs which are created will be filled with people who have some prior experience of the job in question rather than people who have done something completely different in the public sector. In a job market where loads of people are chasing very few jobs, it will always be the people with no direct experience of the job in question that go to the bottom of the pile.

Cheers
D

David Johnson wrote:

> First of all, you refer to Keynes without any links etc.

Sorry, have you not heard of this obscure economist?



> Personally, I doubt if Keynes was in favour of introducing 25%
> cuts in government spending in a recession. Do you?

Possibly not, but Keynes did not think public spending should exceed 25% of GDP, because if it did, you would get pregressively less of a multiplier effect from the extra government spending in a recession. Since current government spending is approaching 50% of GDP, the multiplier effect of further government spending on the wider economy must be close to zero. Whatever you think of Keynes's theories, they can't work when, even in the good times, the government takes up almost half the economy.


> During the years 1997 to 2008, as you can see the discrepancy
> between total spend and revenues did not increase above the 4%
> gap inherited from the Tories even though the Labour party
> introduced an enormous program to stop the NHS collapsing and
> the school system falling apart.

So what you are saying is that even during one of the biggest economic booms ever, Labour never managed to balance the books. Isn't that what I said?


> Because of his action, Britain has been affected much less than
> the likes of Greece, Spain, Portugal, many other EU countries
> etc. Now you could argue that Brown could have let the NHS
> collapse, cut back on public spending and saved the money for
> future, yet to happen, crises. He chose not to. I am pleased
> he did.

The only reason we are not in the position of the PIGS is that we have our own currency which has depreciated by about a quarter. The PIGS are locked into the Euro, and are therefore fucked.



> And finally, since you are concerned about the deficit, how is
> throwing an estimated 1.3 million people out of work (the
> Treasury estimate) in both the public and private sectors over
> 5 years going to improve the deficit?

Frankly, I'd rather pay some of these diversity managers ?65 a week dole than ?65 grand a year. That's a decent saving in my book.

Bob Singleton wrote:


> Robches, I think you'll find that every government this country
> has had since the middle of the 18th century has borrowed more
> than it has received in tax... it's not all Gordon's fault you
> know!

It's a matter of how much they borrow. We can't afford to borrow ?150 billion a year. It's that simple.


> In 1816 the government debt was running at a little over 250%
> of national income (see J F Wrights article "British Government
> Borrowing in Wartime 1750-1815" in the Economic History Review
> of 1999) at about ?790 million.

That was because of a thing called the Napoleonic Wars. 25 years of war will do that. What's Gordon's excuse?


> May I suggest that before you comment on subjects on which you
> patently have no knowledge, other than whatever you pick up in
> The Sun or Sky News, you refrain from posting until such time
> as you do!

May I suggest you try and be less condescending?