Hillsborough Inquest....

[Arginald Valleywater]

Well said Bob.

[David Johnson]

So to summarise:

1. Premier League football teams often have hooligan fans. Quite a rumble in the Rue St. Denis a couple of weeks ago, eh?

2. Premier League clubs, like many organisations and individuals are not particularly forthcoming in commemorating their fans' failings. Did I miss the recent Chelsea FC coach trip to Auschwitz to atone for the forty years or so of right wing, anti-Semitic violence from the Chelsea Headhunters?

Other than to make Argie's day, what exactly is the point of your post?

[Bob Singleton]

David Johnson wrote:


>
> Other than to make Argie's day, what exactly is the point of
> your post?


The point of my post? Someone asked if there might not be the remotest chance that maybe, just perhaps, some, even if only a very minute quantity, of ticketless fans were partially to blame... and the reply was an emphatic there were NO ticketless fans.

Given the history of Liverpool fans, this is a major first!!! So it must be 100% the fault of everyone else (which sits very nicely with the "victim" persona of your average Liverpool supporter... it's never their fault, is it?).

Every year the whole of the country (football supporting or not) is pretty much force-fed this wallowing in self pity. If it were ONLY the families of the 96 it wouldn't be so bad, but people who weren't even born at the time gleefully (and I use that word deliberately because there is a form of glee, nay even martyrdom, in their televised "woe is us") recount how badly it has affected them.

Meanwhile little is ever mentioned of Heysel, Ibrox or Bradford, except at a major anniversary like a 25th or 50th year since it happened.

Regarding Heysel, Liverpool never made a proper and honourable apology. Instead, at the time, the then Liverpool chairman, John Smth, blamed Chelsea fans for the 39 deaths (based on the fact there were a lot of London accents in the crowd... well that's what happens when you get glory-hunters. Except of course, it's only "plastic" clubs like Chelsea that attract glory-hunters!!! Every Man United fan lives in Salford. Every Liverpool fan lives within a stone's throw of Stanley Park!). Their first proper apology came when Liverpool were drawn Juventus in the Champions League in 2005. That's TWENTY YEARS of waiting for a proper apology. And what did Juventus fans get? Some mealey-mouthed words and a "friendship" banner. No wonder those that travelled from Turin to Anfield that day turned their backs on the "ceremony".

Yes, every club has its idiots, and worse. I'm ashamed of those Chelsea fans who hurled racist abuse at players like Paul Canonville and others who followed him. I'm ashamed of those who still occasionaly chant NO SURRENDER and do Nazi style salutes in the side streets outside the ground. However, I can't think of a single football club, other than Liverpool, that has such hypocrisy running through its DNA from top to bottom.

I have no problem with the truth finally coming out about Hillsborough... I think it was obvious to everyone at the time that it was a mix of a stadium that wasn't fit for purpose, a police force that were woefully inept, a few St John's people instead of a proper emergency service on site, and hordes of out of control and drunken fans. That some of the truth was swept under the carpet because it was politically expedient to solely blame the fans was a disgrace. But what is just as much of a disgrace is the wallowing in self pity that the rest of us have to endure from, it seems, every Liverpool supporter, many of whom were never there.

Let LFC remember their dead, but there is absolutely no need for everyone else to do so UNLESS we also remember Heysel, Bradford, Ibrox etc., etc in the same manner too.

[spunkie]

The mid to late eighties saw for some reason witnessed many tragic events and disasters, not only football related (Hysel, Bradford) but also Piper Alpha, Kings Cross Fire, Zebrugge ferry, Clapham rail crash, Lockerbie and more. Each one of those events saw horrific loss of life and scars for those involved but lived to tell the tale.

Tragedies like the ones above arnt caused deliberately, they are caused by mistakes, misunderstandings and the culture of the day. Yet for some unknown reason all we keep hearing about is Liverpool people banging on about Hillsborough and 'Justice' and I dont quite understand why...what is the ultimate goal? They've had more charity records, memorial services, inquiries, government apologies and commemorations than even war veterans.

I do genuinely have every sympathy for those effected, it was a awful tragedy but no more so than any of those I've mentioned above all of which have had a line drawn in the sand and moved on. When was the last time the nation held a minutes silence for the Zebrugge ferry victims? How many of the population are even aware of the anniversary date of that sad event?

It's getting boring now and I fear that the country is actually getting a bit sick of of this scouse self pity. MOVE ON!

[David Johnson]

Thanks for taking the time to write such an articulate, detailed response.

"and the reply was an emphatic there were NO ticketless fans."

This is a misrepresentation of what James W stated in his post which you replied to. What James W stated was "No evidence has ever been found that there were any ticketless fans present."

This isn't the same thing is it, Bob? It is really difficult to prove a negative and to prove there were no ticketless fans at the match. The key point here is that not only was there "no evidence" but that none of the official reports into the Hillsborough disaster have suggested in any way that ticketless fans caused the crush in the Leppings Lane terrace.

I think you need to familiarise yourself with the work of the Health and Safety Executive that spent months going over turnstile entries and pouring over CCTV and video footage. Their conclusion was that ticketless fans were not a factor in the crush. You also need to familiarise yourself with the division of the Leppings Lane terrace into a number of fenced pens. The HSE conclusively proved that it was possible to have a crush in one of those pens and still have a crowd within the overall limits of the Lepping Lane terrace. How? Poor crowd control in which pens were not controlled correctly by being closed off promptly and by sending people into those pens who were not able to see the crush ahead of them.

"Every year the whole of the country (football supporting or not) is pretty much force-fed this wallowing in self pity. If it were ONLY the families of the 96 it wouldn't be so bad, but people who weren't even born at the time gleefully (and I use that word deliberately because there is a form of glee, nay even martyrdom, in their televised "woe is us") recount how badly it has affected them."

This is probably the silliest part of a post which in summary is quite intelligent. What makes Hillsborough different is that in the case of Hillsborough there was an orchestrated campaign largely involving the South Yorkshire police and papers like the Sun to smear the dead and the dying and to accuse the Liverpool fans of "urinating on police officers as they tried to save the dead and the dying". The overwhelming reason for the continuing publicity of the Hillsborough disaster is that the dead were vilified for in some way being responsible for their own deaths and Liverpool supporters wanted to see justice given to the families of those that died. In that sense there is absolutely no comparison whatsoever between Hillsborough and the Ibrox, Bradford and Heysel disasters.

Secondly, your comment about " If it were ONLY the families of the 96 it wouldn't be so bad, but people who weren't even born at the time gleefully recount how badly it has affected them" seems to show a comprehensive lack of understanding of human nature.

Football is one of the last bastions of shared identity in British society where people can attend events as a group and share feelings of elation and sadness together. In the north, the huge industries that dominated towns and vilages such as coal mining, ship building, steel etc have been wiped out. The shared identity that went with those communities has gone. Trade unions, another source of shared identity have been crushed by successive governments.

The essence of humanity is empathy with others. This tends to be strongest amongst areas of shared identity e.g. football fans of a specific club but can be much wider. That is why people who were not at Hillsborough or who were not part of a family that lost a member have been affected.

The hundreds of thousands of British people who contributed money to the Asian tsunami relief, were they gleefully wallowing in self pity? Would someone who lost a best mate in Hillsborough be gleefully wallowing in self pity when expressing their sorrow? When tens of thousands of people waited hours to walk past the coffin of the Queen Mother were they "gleefully wallowing in self pity"? The hundreds of thousands of people who attend Remembrance Day ceremonies and feel moved, even though they were not alive at the time of the Second World War nor lost a family member, are they "wallowing in self pity" No, they were expressing respect and empathy and experiencing part of a shared identity.

"Meanwhile little is ever mentioned of Heysel, Ibrox or Bradford, except at a major anniversary like a 25th or 50th year since it happened."

As I have pointed out there is no comparison between Hillsborough and these other tragedies. At Heysel, a number of Liverpool fans were charged and found guilty of involuntary manslaughter. At Ibrox, Rangers club were found culpable and a number of cases followed. Bradford was different again. None of the fans in these tragedies were blamed for their own deaths and vilified. At Hillsborough they were. At none of those tragedies were there over a 100 evidence statements tampered with by the police. At Hillsborough there were.

"Regarding Heysel, Liverpool never made a proper and honourable apology. "

Correct. But this is true of just about any Premier League club I can think of - a seeming unwillingness to apologise and take responsibility for violent fans.

"I think it was obvious to everyone at the time that it was a mix of a stadium that wasn't fit for purpose, a police force that were woefully inept, a few St John's people instead of a proper emergency service on site, and hordes of out of control and drunken fans."

I challenge you Bob to show me any official report such as the Taylor report, the Hillsborough Independent report etc. that blames the deaths in part to "hordes of out of control and drunken fans". Lord Justice Taylor's Interim Report condemned the evidence and testimony of senior police officers and rejected as exaggerated the allegations made against Liverpool fans. He stated categorically that fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster. The coroner at the inquest which opened recently in Warrington has stated that the fans that died were in no way responsible for their own deaths.

Where is the evidence for your statement about "the hordes of out of control and drunken fans" being a factor in the deaths?


"Let LFC remember their dead, but there is absolutely no need for everyone else to do so UNLESS we also remember Heysel, Bradford, Ibrox etc., etc in the same manner too."

I have already explained why this statement is flawed. Hillsborough was not like the other disasters mentioned and everyone should support those seeking justice for the dead in the face of a comprehensive attempt to avoid blame and responsibility by smearing those fans at the game and criminally change evidence.

[Bob Singleton]

David Johnson wrote:

> Thanks for taking the time to write such an articulate,
> detailed response.
>


Reading through your post, am I to infer that

a) Every Liverpool fan had a genuine ticket that belonged to them or had been bought for them, and not stolen, forged or bought from a tout?

b) Every single Liverpool fan was sober

c) All the Liverpool fans patiently queued liked pensioners in a post office to get into the ground

because that's essentially what you seem to be saying

Liverpool... never to blame, always the victims

96 snores, 96 bores, justice for the 39!!!




P.S.

I said: "Regarding Heysel, Liverpool never made a proper and honourable apology. "

You said: "Correct. But this is true of just about any Premier League club I can think of - a seeming unwillingness to apologise and take responsibility for violent fans."

What you conveniently ignored was that not only, like other clubs, did Liverpool seem unwilling to apologise or take responsibility, they (unlike other clubs) tried to put the blame on a 3rd club who were not even involved!!!

LIVERPOOL = SCUM SCUM SCUM

[Arginald Valleywater]

Justice is spelt Compensation Money in LFC lingo.

[David Johnson]

"Reading through your post, am I to infer that
a) Every Liverpool fan had a genuine ticket that belonged to them or had been bought for them, and not stolen, forged or bought from a tout?
b) Every single Liverpool fan was sober
c) All the Liverpool fans patiently queued liked pensioners in a post office to get into the ground

Err, no Bob......................obviously!

To repeat yet again, to say that there is "no evidence that.." is not necessarily the same as stating everyone had a ticket. Is that so difficult for you to understand?

And it would appear that I have to make a statement of the bleeding obvious on your behalf to help you - if there was no supporter in the crowd that had had a few nor any supporter who pushed at one point it would be a first. Still able to follow that?

However that is the same at all football matches. And there weren't disasters at every football match before Hillsborough.

What I am stating is that there is no evidence in any of the official reports coming out about Hillsborough that "hordes of out of control and drunken fans" , to use your phrase, were a factor in the disaster.

I challenged you to show me evidence from the official reports to support your view about "hordes of out of control and drunken fans" and you bottled it completely. No pun intended. As I said, read about the layout of the Leppings Lane terrace and the Health and Safety Executive exhaustive research into the overcrowding charge and you would be less likely to talk out of your arse.

As for "96 snores, 96 bores, justice for the 39!!!" and "LIVERPOOL = SCUM SCUM SCUM" I will leave you to your infantile football terrace chants.

Mind, your posts on this topic haven't been a completely useless waste of time, you have really, really, really impressed Argie!

[Bob Singleton]

David... don't pretend not to understand

[Sam Slater]

What a sad thread on the anniversary weekend.

I remember the day as I watched all the Nottingham Forest fans pass by in their cars on the way to the ground. I was 12. Lots of smiling faces. None on the way home.

I think when things like this happen, everyone looks for somebody to blame. In the aftermath of that day it was clearly the Liverpool fans themselves that took the blame for everything. Scandalous. South Yorkshire police played their part in this and it wasn't that far further back we had the Battle of Orgreave and saw the brutality of the police. Seems no lessons were learnt there.

But as always in big tragic events like this, it's simplistic to blame one side over the other. I think that over the years, because of the way the Liverpool fans were treated, it's gone the other way where everyone is to blame barring the fans themselves. I think that glosses over what we all saw that day. People forget the crush 'outside' the ground where Liverpool fans were pushing against the Leppings Lane gates, almost breaking down the gates themselves to get in. A few people had to be dragged to safety outside the ground if I remember rightly. I know people who lived on Leppings Lane who watched it unfold.

Seems to me everyone was to blame. The police, the club (SWFC), the FA for holding major events there when they'd been crushes and warnings before.....and yes, the fans......all fans, for creating a culture of violence and mayhem for decades whereby the clubs had to pen them in behind metal fencing. The good thing to come out of this is the ground safety and better behaved fans.

Bob does have one point, and that's this annual weekend of respect every club has to pay and quarter of a century on. Like he said, we don't have it for other tragedies and many football fans feel they're being guilt-tripped into paying respect to something they've moved on from. Sounds harsh, but unless you're over 30, you'll not remember anything about that day. Let Liverpool hold their anniversaries, but we don't need it at every ground, every year.

I would say to Bob and all the others that say 'move on' etc......maybe if the police had done their job properly we would have by now. This sense of injustice has kept it running and running more than anything. It's not all the doing of Liverpool fans playing the victim card.