"I think when things like this happen, everyone looks for somebody to blame."
Well when 96 people go off to watch a footie game and don't come back, it is understandable that people would look for "somebody to blame" don't you think?
"But as always in big tragic events like this, it's simplistic to blame one side over the other. "
Why? Are there never tragic events in football grounds when there is only one side to blame and it is not the fans' fault?
"People forget the crush 'outside' the ground where Liverpool fans were pushing against the Leppings Lane gates, almost breaking down the gates themselves to get in."
Of course there was a crush outside the Leppings Lane gates. This regularly happened in big matches at Hillsborough. From the confined area outside Leppings Lane, over 24,000 fans passed through 23 turnstiles. 10,100 fans had to go through the 7 turnstiles allocated to the Leppings Lane Terrace. This was 1,443 for each turnstile, by far the highest number for any part of the stadium. It would have been very surprising if there had not been a crush. If the gate had not been opened it was estimated that it would have taken to 3.40 for fans to get through the turnstiles.
The Health and Safety executive found that the restricted approach to the Leppings Lane end and the comparatively low number of turnstiles resulted in inevitable congestion and delays in entering the stadium at capacity matches
Did anyone outside the Leppings Lane gates die? No. Was anyone seriously injured outside the Leppings Lane gates? No as far as I know.
"and yes, the fans......all fans, for creating a culture of violence and mayhem for decades whereby the clubs had to pen them in behind metal fencing."
Hooliganism was a problem generally in football amongst a minority of fans. There was no evidence in the various Hillsborough official reports that hooliganism was a problem here. Indeed if perimeter fence gates had not been opened inside Leppings Lane in the 1981 semi-final between Spurs and Wolves, there would have been a disaster like the one in '89.
The following will explain how warnings were ignored and Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen.
"Sounds harsh, but unless you're over 30, you'll not remember anything about that day."
Yeah lets forget about all this Remembrance Day shite. World War 2 who gives a fuck. 96 people who got smeared by the police and the Sun, give it a fucking rest. Move on. Eh?
Hillsborough Inquest....
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Sam Slater
- Posts: 11624
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Sam
[quote]"I think when things like this happen, everyone looks for somebody to blame."
Well when 96 people go off to watch a footie game and don't come back, it is understandable that people would look for "somebody to blame" don't you think?[/quote]
You miss my point completely. I never said or implied it wasn't natural, just that it's not helpful in getting to the truth.
[quote]"But as always in big tragic events like this, it's simplistic to blame one side over the other. "
Why? Are there never tragic events in football grounds when there is only one side to blame and it is not the fans' fault?[/quote]
On this scale? I don't know of any. More often than not it is a combination of things going wrong which leads to something like this.
[quote]"People forget the crush 'outside' the ground where Liverpool fans were pushing against the Leppings Lane gates, almost breaking down the gates themselves to get in."
Of course there was a crush outside the Leppings Lane gates. This regularly happened in big matches at Hillsborough. From the confined area outside Leppings Lane, over 24,000 fans passed through 23 turnstiles. 10,100 fans had to go through the 7 turnstiles allocated to the Leppings Lane Terrace. This was 1,443 for each turnstile, by far the highest number for any part of the stadium. It would have been very surprising if there had not been a crush. If the gate had not been opened it was estimated that it would have taken to 3.40 for fans to get through the turnstiles.
The Health and Safety executive found that the restricted approach to the Leppings Lane end and the comparatively low number of turnstiles resulted in inevitable congestion and delays in entering the stadium at capacity matches[/quote]
None of that makes a crush inevitable. There was room for those people outside the ground at the Leppings Lane end. Police routinely closed the road to accommodate fans. The crush happened because people wanted to get into the ground. Fans knew that pushing up and causing a crush would make the police open the gates. They're not mindless animals who who'd never been to matches before and didn't know what caused a crush at the front. I've been to matches as a kid and seen people at the back pushing down the kop to cause a crush because it was 'funny'. It happened.
My points are in no way to deflect blame from the police, FA or club. It's to be realistic. The fans played their part in this.
Do you think the fans were completely innocent, David? If you wasn't going to see the first 20 minutes of a match would you push up with the rest of the crowd or wait in line? Which is more important to you?
[quote]Did anyone outside the Leppings Lane gates die? No. Was anyone seriously injured outside the Leppings Lane gates? No as far as I know.[/quote]
What do you think the reaction would have been if the police refused to open the gates and there'd been a similar tragedy outside? They'd have been blamed for not alleviating that crush too.
[quote]"and yes, the fans......all fans, for creating a culture of violence and mayhem for decades whereby the clubs had to pen them in behind metal fencing."
Hooliganism was a problem generally in football amongst a minority of fans. There was no evidence in the various Hillsborough official reports that hooliganism was a problem here.[/quote]
You miss my point. I wasn't saying hooliganism caused the Hillsborough disaster directly. My point was that all grounds put up steel fences and caged fans in because of decades of hooliganism. That this culture played it's part in creating the environment and circumstances for such a thing as this to happen.
[quote]The following will explain how warnings were ignored and Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen.
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/ ... ry/page-3/[/quote]
Have no argument with this at all. Don't know why you posted it.
[quote]"Sounds harsh, but unless you're over 30, you'll not remember anything about that day."
Yeah lets forget about all this Remembrance Day shite. World War 2 who gives a fuck. 96 people who got smeared by the police and the Sun, give it a fucking rest. Move on. Eh?[/quote]
Oh fuck off, David. Stop trying to paint me as one of Argie's ilk. You know my points weren't about defending the Sun newspaper or police. Stop that shit right now. I just believe that if some fans in Norwich don't want to hold a minute's silence every year for an event they had nothing to do with, or even remember happening, which involved other fans the other side of the country, they shouldn't have to - nor feel guilty for not wanting to. That's totally different to two world wars that effected almost every town in the country and 3 generations of people where millions died. Blaming someone from Exeter for not paying respects to Liverpool fans who died a quarter of a century ago is like slagging off Irish people who don't honour the dead of WW2.
Unless you've got it in your head I'm in any way in that cunt Argie's camp, let me make it very clear that I'm not. To imply in any way that I am is unfair. I'm saying that a lot of people are responsible on all sides, that's all. I've taken my niece and nephew to the Hillsborough memorial at the South Stand every year for 8 years on the anniversary to lay flowers and make sure they grow up remembering what happened. As a Wednesday fan that lived in Hillsborough for a while I think it's important not to forget. But that's because it's no my doorstep and it's my club. I don't expect somebody in London like Bob to feel it the same way. Especially a quarter of a century later.
I do not, for instance, give much thought to the 270 people that were killed at Lockerbie 26 years ago. I do not feel guilty that I don't hold a minute's silence every year on the 21st of December. It doesn't mean I have forgotten and my not paying annual respects doesn't mean I'm apathetic to the people who died, nor the families left behind. But it was a long time ago and happened quite a way from where I live. Do you take a minute out of your time every year on the 21st of December to pay your respects? Be honest.
Finally, if you think I'm some heartless cunt like Argie, who seems to glee in just about anybody's downfall then please ignore me from here on in and I will do likewise. Not everyone who doesn't subscribe you your way of thinking on everything is some sort of fucking holocaust denier.
Well when 96 people go off to watch a footie game and don't come back, it is understandable that people would look for "somebody to blame" don't you think?[/quote]
You miss my point completely. I never said or implied it wasn't natural, just that it's not helpful in getting to the truth.
[quote]"But as always in big tragic events like this, it's simplistic to blame one side over the other. "
Why? Are there never tragic events in football grounds when there is only one side to blame and it is not the fans' fault?[/quote]
On this scale? I don't know of any. More often than not it is a combination of things going wrong which leads to something like this.
[quote]"People forget the crush 'outside' the ground where Liverpool fans were pushing against the Leppings Lane gates, almost breaking down the gates themselves to get in."
Of course there was a crush outside the Leppings Lane gates. This regularly happened in big matches at Hillsborough. From the confined area outside Leppings Lane, over 24,000 fans passed through 23 turnstiles. 10,100 fans had to go through the 7 turnstiles allocated to the Leppings Lane Terrace. This was 1,443 for each turnstile, by far the highest number for any part of the stadium. It would have been very surprising if there had not been a crush. If the gate had not been opened it was estimated that it would have taken to 3.40 for fans to get through the turnstiles.
The Health and Safety executive found that the restricted approach to the Leppings Lane end and the comparatively low number of turnstiles resulted in inevitable congestion and delays in entering the stadium at capacity matches[/quote]
None of that makes a crush inevitable. There was room for those people outside the ground at the Leppings Lane end. Police routinely closed the road to accommodate fans. The crush happened because people wanted to get into the ground. Fans knew that pushing up and causing a crush would make the police open the gates. They're not mindless animals who who'd never been to matches before and didn't know what caused a crush at the front. I've been to matches as a kid and seen people at the back pushing down the kop to cause a crush because it was 'funny'. It happened.
My points are in no way to deflect blame from the police, FA or club. It's to be realistic. The fans played their part in this.
Do you think the fans were completely innocent, David? If you wasn't going to see the first 20 minutes of a match would you push up with the rest of the crowd or wait in line? Which is more important to you?
[quote]Did anyone outside the Leppings Lane gates die? No. Was anyone seriously injured outside the Leppings Lane gates? No as far as I know.[/quote]
What do you think the reaction would have been if the police refused to open the gates and there'd been a similar tragedy outside? They'd have been blamed for not alleviating that crush too.
[quote]"and yes, the fans......all fans, for creating a culture of violence and mayhem for decades whereby the clubs had to pen them in behind metal fencing."
Hooliganism was a problem generally in football amongst a minority of fans. There was no evidence in the various Hillsborough official reports that hooliganism was a problem here.[/quote]
You miss my point. I wasn't saying hooliganism caused the Hillsborough disaster directly. My point was that all grounds put up steel fences and caged fans in because of decades of hooliganism. That this culture played it's part in creating the environment and circumstances for such a thing as this to happen.
[quote]The following will explain how warnings were ignored and Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen.
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/ ... ry/page-3/[/quote]
Have no argument with this at all. Don't know why you posted it.
[quote]"Sounds harsh, but unless you're over 30, you'll not remember anything about that day."
Yeah lets forget about all this Remembrance Day shite. World War 2 who gives a fuck. 96 people who got smeared by the police and the Sun, give it a fucking rest. Move on. Eh?[/quote]
Oh fuck off, David. Stop trying to paint me as one of Argie's ilk. You know my points weren't about defending the Sun newspaper or police. Stop that shit right now. I just believe that if some fans in Norwich don't want to hold a minute's silence every year for an event they had nothing to do with, or even remember happening, which involved other fans the other side of the country, they shouldn't have to - nor feel guilty for not wanting to. That's totally different to two world wars that effected almost every town in the country and 3 generations of people where millions died. Blaming someone from Exeter for not paying respects to Liverpool fans who died a quarter of a century ago is like slagging off Irish people who don't honour the dead of WW2.
Unless you've got it in your head I'm in any way in that cunt Argie's camp, let me make it very clear that I'm not. To imply in any way that I am is unfair. I'm saying that a lot of people are responsible on all sides, that's all. I've taken my niece and nephew to the Hillsborough memorial at the South Stand every year for 8 years on the anniversary to lay flowers and make sure they grow up remembering what happened. As a Wednesday fan that lived in Hillsborough for a while I think it's important not to forget. But that's because it's no my doorstep and it's my club. I don't expect somebody in London like Bob to feel it the same way. Especially a quarter of a century later.
I do not, for instance, give much thought to the 270 people that were killed at Lockerbie 26 years ago. I do not feel guilty that I don't hold a minute's silence every year on the 21st of December. It doesn't mean I have forgotten and my not paying annual respects doesn't mean I'm apathetic to the people who died, nor the families left behind. But it was a long time ago and happened quite a way from where I live. Do you take a minute out of your time every year on the 21st of December to pay your respects? Be honest.
Finally, if you think I'm some heartless cunt like Argie, who seems to glee in just about anybody's downfall then please ignore me from here on in and I will do likewise. Not everyone who doesn't subscribe you your way of thinking on everything is some sort of fucking holocaust denier.
[i]I used to spend a lot of time criticizing Islam on here in the noughties - but things are much better now.[/i]
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Arginald Valleywater
- Posts: 4288
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Sam
Right that's the 25th anniversary over. Any chance of Liverpool fans talking about FOOTBALL after their superb win against Man City?
Re: Hillsborough Inquest....
As far as I am aware, and I am happy to be corrected, there was nothing unusual about the behaviour of fans that day. The unusual thing was that Superintendent Duckenfield was in charge for his first match. He should have closed the entrances to the central pens, and diverted the fans to the side pens, as would usually have happened, but he did not. From this mistake, the tragedy followed. It was a sad failure by one man, but, as we know, the police do not admit to failure willingly, and so the fans were blamed, and statements altered, and not to put too fine a point on it, there was a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. That, it seems to me, is the root of the grievance, which is only now being addressed. As I say, that is my take, if anyone thinks differently they are welcome to correct me, as I do not pretend to be an expert on the matter.
Re: Hillsborough Inquest....
Robches wrote:
> if anyone thinks differently they are welcome to
> correct me, as I do not pretend to be an expert on the matter.
You don't need correcting Robches. You are very accurate. This is from the recent independent enquiry's report and confirms your version of events:
At 2.47, Superintendent Marshall, the senior officer responsible for policing the crowd in Leppings Lane, 'realised that the crowd had become unmanageable'. He 'feared fatalities would occur' and 'radioed control to permit the gates to be opened'.
BBC coverage shows Pens 3 and 4 from 2.49pm until 2.52pm. Both central pens were packed full. The tunnel beneath the West Stand, which provided the only access to the central pens should have been closed at this point. It was a simple exercise that had been carried out in 1988, at the previous year's semi-final.
In the outer concourse, Superintendent Marshall was dealing with the worsening crush. Over the radio he repeated his request for an exit gate to be opened to relieve the pressure. He added that if the gates were not opened someone would be killed.
Chief Superintendent Duckenfield was hesitant. Superintendent Murray asked him "Are you going to open the gates?". Chief Superintendent Duckenfield then gave the order. Sergeant Goddard radioed to "Open the gates"'.
Neither the Club Control room nor any police officers inside the turnstiles were informed that the gates were to be opened. They were also not given any instructions about how to respond and manage the incoming crowd. Most significantly they were not instructed to close access to the tunnel leading down into Pens 3 and 4 of the Leppings Lane Terrace.
It should have been clear in the control room where there was a view of the pens and of the crowd at the turnstiles that the tunnel had to be closed. If orders had been given to that effect when gate C was opened, the fans could have been directed to the empty areas of the wings and this disaster could have been avoided. Failure to give that order was a blunder of the first magnitude.
> if anyone thinks differently they are welcome to
> correct me, as I do not pretend to be an expert on the matter.
You don't need correcting Robches. You are very accurate. This is from the recent independent enquiry's report and confirms your version of events:
At 2.47, Superintendent Marshall, the senior officer responsible for policing the crowd in Leppings Lane, 'realised that the crowd had become unmanageable'. He 'feared fatalities would occur' and 'radioed control to permit the gates to be opened'.
BBC coverage shows Pens 3 and 4 from 2.49pm until 2.52pm. Both central pens were packed full. The tunnel beneath the West Stand, which provided the only access to the central pens should have been closed at this point. It was a simple exercise that had been carried out in 1988, at the previous year's semi-final.
In the outer concourse, Superintendent Marshall was dealing with the worsening crush. Over the radio he repeated his request for an exit gate to be opened to relieve the pressure. He added that if the gates were not opened someone would be killed.
Chief Superintendent Duckenfield was hesitant. Superintendent Murray asked him "Are you going to open the gates?". Chief Superintendent Duckenfield then gave the order. Sergeant Goddard radioed to "Open the gates"'.
Neither the Club Control room nor any police officers inside the turnstiles were informed that the gates were to be opened. They were also not given any instructions about how to respond and manage the incoming crowd. Most significantly they were not instructed to close access to the tunnel leading down into Pens 3 and 4 of the Leppings Lane Terrace.
It should have been clear in the control room where there was a view of the pens and of the crowd at the turnstiles that the tunnel had to be closed. If orders had been given to that effect when gate C was opened, the fans could have been directed to the empty areas of the wings and this disaster could have been avoided. Failure to give that order was a blunder of the first magnitude.
UK Babe Channels - <http://www.babechannels.co.uk>
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Arginald Valleywater
- Posts: 4288
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Sam
And we are getting more media bombardment. What next 96 new saints? Knighthoods? Liverpool used to be known for music and football. Now it is known for peddling misery instead of getting on with life like other people do after a bereavement.
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David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Sam
""I think when things like this happen, everyone looks for somebody to blame."
I never said or implied it wasn't natural, just that it's not helpful in getting to the truth."
This is obviously wrong. The families, friends of the dead refused to accept "the blame" placed on the dead by the police and certain parts of the tabloid press. If those families and friends had not refused to accept that "blame" and pursued tirelessly their campaign for decades to find out who really was to "blame" for their deaths do you seriously believe that an inquest would be opening now after the results of the previous inquest had been quashed? Of course not. It is only through their desire to find out who is to blame for the deaths of their family members that we are so much nearer decades later to finding out the "truth".
"On this scale? I don't know of any (referring to football tragedies where responsibility is down to one side) More often than not it is a combination of things going wrong which leads to something like this."
You need to familiarise yourself with the Ibrox disaster of 1971. This from Wikipedia.
"Sheriff James Irvine Smith, in his damages statement, ruled: "The said accident was due to the fault and negligence of the defenders, Rangers F.C Smith found Rangers F.C. guilty on four counts in the case of the death of Charles Dougan, a 31-year-old boilermaker from Clydebank who died, as did 56 others, from traumatic asphyxia.
After hearing of a series of accidents on Stairway Thirteen including September 1961 when there were 70 people injured and two deaths, September 1967 when 11 people were taken to hospital, and January 1969 when 29 people were injured, Sheriff Irvine Smith stated,
So far as the evidence is concerned, the Board never so much as considered that it ought to apply its mind to the question of safety on that particular stairway [...] and would appear ? I put it no higher ? to have proceeded on the view that if the problem was ignored long enough it would eventually go away [...] Indeed it goes further than this because certain of their actions can only be interpreted as a deliberate and apparently successful attempt to deceive others that they were doing something, when in fact they were doing nothing. In the case of Charles Dougan and a further 60 cases brought by relatives of the dead, Rangers F.C. did not dispute the findings of Sheriff Irvine Smith and instead merely disputed the calculation of the damages as can be seen from the appeal judgement of the Sheriff Principal. "
Do you seriously think so much money would be paid in damages if there was an element of the fans being at fault???
"None of that makes a crush inevitable. There was room for those people outside the ground at the Leppings Lane end. Police routinely closed the road to accommodate fans. The crush happened because people wanted to get into the ground.... Do you think the fans were completely innocent, David? If you wasn't going to see the first 20 minutes of a match would you push up with the rest of the crowd or wait in line? Which is more important to you?"
Yes I think in this case, the fans were innocent. I repeat. Did anyone die outside the stadium? Was anyone seriously injured outside the stadium? No to both those questions. Was congestion inevitable? Yes according to the Health and Safety Executive who spent months working on this. I refuse to believe you are better informed than the HSE.
Were the deaths on the Leppings Lane terraces down to the opening of the gates? No. Once again the HSE stated that the overall number of fans in that end was not in itself enough to cause the deaths. It was down completely to the management of the pens. If you know better than the HSE, prove it!!
""and yes, the fans......all fans, for creating a culture of violence and mayhem for decades whereby the clubs had to pen them in behind metal fencing.
Obviously you are wrong. It is not "all fans" that were to blame for "creating a culture of violence and mayhem" . I repeat plenty of events had gone fine without problem, with the fencing. It didn't at Hillsborough for reasons that had nothing to do with hooliganism, but crowd control.
"Sounds harsh, but unless you're over 30, you'll not remember anything about that day. Let Liverpool hold their anniversaries, but we don't need it at every ground, every year."
Do calm down. My word, you appear to be getting more and more intemperate as middle age beckons, Samuel. Did I compare you with Argie? No, I did not.
If you want to understand what I am on about as opposed to stupidly telling me to "fuck off", read the section from the link below that deals with shared identity.
I never said or implied it wasn't natural, just that it's not helpful in getting to the truth."
This is obviously wrong. The families, friends of the dead refused to accept "the blame" placed on the dead by the police and certain parts of the tabloid press. If those families and friends had not refused to accept that "blame" and pursued tirelessly their campaign for decades to find out who really was to "blame" for their deaths do you seriously believe that an inquest would be opening now after the results of the previous inquest had been quashed? Of course not. It is only through their desire to find out who is to blame for the deaths of their family members that we are so much nearer decades later to finding out the "truth".
"On this scale? I don't know of any (referring to football tragedies where responsibility is down to one side) More often than not it is a combination of things going wrong which leads to something like this."
You need to familiarise yourself with the Ibrox disaster of 1971. This from Wikipedia.
"Sheriff James Irvine Smith, in his damages statement, ruled: "The said accident was due to the fault and negligence of the defenders, Rangers F.C Smith found Rangers F.C. guilty on four counts in the case of the death of Charles Dougan, a 31-year-old boilermaker from Clydebank who died, as did 56 others, from traumatic asphyxia.
After hearing of a series of accidents on Stairway Thirteen including September 1961 when there were 70 people injured and two deaths, September 1967 when 11 people were taken to hospital, and January 1969 when 29 people were injured, Sheriff Irvine Smith stated,
So far as the evidence is concerned, the Board never so much as considered that it ought to apply its mind to the question of safety on that particular stairway [...] and would appear ? I put it no higher ? to have proceeded on the view that if the problem was ignored long enough it would eventually go away [...] Indeed it goes further than this because certain of their actions can only be interpreted as a deliberate and apparently successful attempt to deceive others that they were doing something, when in fact they were doing nothing. In the case of Charles Dougan and a further 60 cases brought by relatives of the dead, Rangers F.C. did not dispute the findings of Sheriff Irvine Smith and instead merely disputed the calculation of the damages as can be seen from the appeal judgement of the Sheriff Principal. "
Do you seriously think so much money would be paid in damages if there was an element of the fans being at fault???
"None of that makes a crush inevitable. There was room for those people outside the ground at the Leppings Lane end. Police routinely closed the road to accommodate fans. The crush happened because people wanted to get into the ground.... Do you think the fans were completely innocent, David? If you wasn't going to see the first 20 minutes of a match would you push up with the rest of the crowd or wait in line? Which is more important to you?"
Yes I think in this case, the fans were innocent. I repeat. Did anyone die outside the stadium? Was anyone seriously injured outside the stadium? No to both those questions. Was congestion inevitable? Yes according to the Health and Safety Executive who spent months working on this. I refuse to believe you are better informed than the HSE.
Were the deaths on the Leppings Lane terraces down to the opening of the gates? No. Once again the HSE stated that the overall number of fans in that end was not in itself enough to cause the deaths. It was down completely to the management of the pens. If you know better than the HSE, prove it!!
""and yes, the fans......all fans, for creating a culture of violence and mayhem for decades whereby the clubs had to pen them in behind metal fencing.
Obviously you are wrong. It is not "all fans" that were to blame for "creating a culture of violence and mayhem" . I repeat plenty of events had gone fine without problem, with the fencing. It didn't at Hillsborough for reasons that had nothing to do with hooliganism, but crowd control.
"Sounds harsh, but unless you're over 30, you'll not remember anything about that day. Let Liverpool hold their anniversaries, but we don't need it at every ground, every year."
Do calm down. My word, you appear to be getting more and more intemperate as middle age beckons, Samuel. Did I compare you with Argie? No, I did not.
If you want to understand what I am on about as opposed to stupidly telling me to "fuck off", read the section from the link below that deals with shared identity.