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Watched the re-run of the programme last night on More4, and found it well put together.

They mixed up very serious points with the commentary put across in a light-hearted manner as if global warming was a joke. I guess that was the whole point. It was supposed to make people grin, and feel secure that everything's ok.

There were a few times I got angry at the TV. The graph comparisons of C02 and temperature & sun spots was funny. It looked like the sun spot and temperature graphs were worked out using (for eg.) 50 year averages, while the C02 line was smoother and less spiky. (500 year averages maybe?). The graphs may be accurate and all 3 data inputs rose slightly, but the illusion was a greater correlation between sun spots and temperature, probably due to how they worked out the mean averages of the data to show in the graphs.

The part I really wanted to bang my head on the wall about was when they were telling us the stratosphere temperatures were pretty stable compared to surface temperatures. They told the audience that greenhouse gasses affected the stratosphere more, and there was hardly any change at all.......nothing to see here. That's bollocks........well what I've learnt tells me it's bollocks (science forever changes as you know). Unlike nearer the surface where it gets cooler the higher you get (in the troposphere), the stratosphere actually gets warmer the higher you get because of the UV absorbing properties of the ozone layer just above the higher stratosphere.

C02 and N2O are heavier than Oxygen, Helium and Hydrogen, so C02 effects the warming of the troposphere and lower stratosphere where ozone and the power of the suns rays affect the upper stratosphere more. The programme just mentioned 'stratosphere' when talking of it's temperature, but failed to mention which parts of the stratosphere were measured for the programme. I'm no scientist, but even I can see that's pretty important.................oh but that would mean admitting their theory wouldn't look so solid, so they left that bit out.

Heavy elements like C02 affect the surface temperature more because gravity keeps them close to the Earth. Oxygen is lighter than C02, and yet people find it hard to breath at the top of Everest. Lack of Oxygen you see. So how would C02 get higher in the atmosphere than Oxygen if it's heavier? Doesn't make sense does it?

The programme admitted surface temperatures have risen sharply..........well that's because CO2 condenses in the lower atmosphere that's why!

In fact there's an article that suggests higher C02 levels will actually cool the mid-higher stratosphere while heating up the surface temperature of the planet. Something to do with C02 radiating in the LW frequencies and that it's the SW frequencies that heat up the stratosphere.

The troposphere (with lots of heavy elements like C02) doesn't warm the surface on it's own, it just stops the heat escaping again, like thermal underwear. In the the programme was correct in stating that the biggest factor of temperature on Earth is the Sun. They failed to tell you that C02 affects heat escape which is nothing to do with the Sun (directly).

I guess both sides are using charts and graphs, playing around with the figures and leaving out important facts to make their own theories look like the best theory, but one side is asking us to be more cautious and careful, while the other side is asking us to gamble the ultimate prize.

Too much of a gamble for me really.

don't get too hung up on the relative molecular weights of these species, for example methane is much 'better' as a global warming species, yet you don't find it at higher concentrations higher in the atmosphere.

CO2 only makes up .03% of the atmosphere and in practice the climate ie wind/rain etc keeps things as a pretty homogenous mix

The winters from 1962 through to 1965 were extremely cold with temperatures reguarly dropping down to -22% and in sheltered bays the sea would freeze over, the boffins then predicted a new ice age was on the way, as we all know it never happened and 40 years on the ice is melting !confused!

[quote]CO2 only makes up .03% of the atmosphere[/quote]

and?

Only 0.03-0.04% means nothing if you don't know the potency of C02's ability to retain heat.

I weigh 78kg and 78ng of tetanus will kill me.

0.78kg = 780g

780g = 780,000mg

780,000mg = 780,000,000mcg

780,000,000mcg = 780,000,000,000ng


Forgive my math -out of practice- but does that make a lethal dose of tetanus to be 0.0000000001% of my body weight?

0.04% may look small, but what if 0.05% is the Earth's lethal dose?

I can tell you for a fact that we're on our way to another ice age (unless we fuck things up). Hopefully the Earth is on it's way to numerous ice ages.

true but this wasn't on a global scale which is what we are seeing now

0.04% may look small, but what if 0.05% is the Earth's lethal dose?

it could well be, that wasn't the point I was making, not too sure what you are getting at here

I was saying that you don't get higher and lower levels of molecules at various parts of the atmosphere due to gravity

you said people find it harder to breathe at altitude as there is less oxygen, sorry, simply not true, you've got your science wrong Sam

The percentage of oxygen in the atmosphere at sea level is about 21% and the barometric pressure is around 760 mmHg. As altitude increases, the percentage remains the same but the number of oxygen molecules per breath is reduced. At 3,600 metres (12,000 feet) the barometric pressure is only about 480 mmHg, so there are roughly 40% fewer oxygen molecules per breath so the body must adjust to having less oxygen

[quote][quote]0.04% may look small, but what if 0.05% is the Earth's lethal dose?[/quote]

it could well be, that wasn't the point I was making[/quote]

You made the point that CO2 was only 0.03% of the atmosphere so I assumed from that - that you wasn't too concerned with that percentage - hence my point.

[quote]I was saying that you don't get higher and lower levels of molecules at various parts of the atmosphere due to gravity[/quote]

I would say you definitely do. Iron, copper and water aren't usually found in the sky, while helium escapes into space. I wasn't saying CO2 cannot find its way into the stratosphere, I was saying gravity does make sure certain elements accumulate more in the troposphere than others, and this is because gravity has a greater affect on certain elements due to their weight. (long term affects).

[quote]The percentage of oxygen in the atmosphere at sea level is about 21% and the barometric pressure is around 760 mmHg. As altitude increases, the percentage remains the same but the number of oxygen molecules per breath is reduced. At 3,600 metres (12,000 feet) the barometric pressure is only about 480 mmHg, so there are roughly 40% fewer oxygen molecules per breath so the body must adjust to having less oxygen[/quote]

What you say about the barometric pressure is correct, but you still contradicted yourself. You say the percentage of oxygen doesn't change no matter how far up you go, but at the same time, there are less oxygen molecules per breath? Did you mean that it's harder for your lungs to pull in as many oxygen molecules because the air pressure is lower? I think that's what you meant, and makes sense.

My 'mountain breathing' analogy was a bad one I guess, as we're only talking of a few miles of altitude. No matter, there is less breathable Oxygen, the higher up you go. You mention pressure, but you must realise that it's only gravity that causes this pressure? Gravity pulls heavier elements towards the surface, they accumulate and get more compact, and thus the pressure increases?

I'm not saying my science is completely correct, but having watched that programme last night..............well, I won't be too embarrassed if you point out my faults.

Pressure is a consequence of gravity and molecule compactness, and gravity affects heavier elements more than lighter elements, as far as I've been led to believe.

Its all down to eating to much junk food people are farting to much !happy!

You're actually on the right track.

Too many people will kill off all other life before global warming. !sad!