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I just believe in democracy, and I've said I can understand how some people would vote for them if they are poor, totally ingored, and the BNP are the only political organisation that has ever come near their street. I said previously that if I was from Northern Ireland I would respect the legitimacy of a Sinn Fein MP in my constituency, even if someone close to me had been killed by the IRA (Sinn Fein is of course the political wing of the IRA). If they are voted in they should be treated like anyone else who gets voted in. So the BNP deserve to be viewed like anyone else.

I've said I would never vote for them because of the fact the leader is on record denying the Holocaust and saying all non-whites should be booted out. This was 10 years ago and he now claims to have changed his mind. The pro British elements within them, namely wanting the culture, heritage, traditions, and language of this country retained - when the main 3 parties are doing everything they can to destroy all of that - I do find appealing. The other views they have I do not support therefore I could never vote for them.

I believe 99.9% of the people who vote for them are NOT the jackboot, skinhead thug, element that used to be their core support when they were a smaller organisation. Most of their voters are people who dont want their way of life destroyed and who are genuinely scared for the future if mass, out of control, immigration continues. Their pro-British views I like; their Holocaust denying, repatriate the non-whites, views I do not. I support their views on immigration too - we havent got the room, the transport network, hosptials and schools cant cope as it is, we are the 3rd most overcroweded country on earth yet these idiots in power are allowing the highest immigration in over one thousand years into Britain.

Seeing as many dont assimilate, it ends up eroding and altering our way of life. Islamic immigration into Britain is something that really worries me - a totally differnt way of looking at things and the Koran tells them to feel kinship with other muslims around the world and not to just anyone in the place they are in. So Islam knows no country borders and when we have 15-20 million here in a few decade's time I expect their will be calls for seperate homelands within Britain and their will be daily ethnic violence on the scale we presently see daily in Pakistan. The future worries me a lot.

Also, it seems to me that the more islamified we get the most changes we will make to accomodate them. We now have Sharia Courts operating in Britain. If a white or a black Britain treated his wife like most muslim men in Brtain treat theirs, he would be in trouble. The law isnt enforced on muslims though - a muslim woman being told by her husband that she can not show her face in public and has to wear a mask, as well as telling her she has to walk around on hot summers days wearing a tent, is something that would not be acceptable if black or white Britons did it. It is fine for muslim men to treat their wives in this way though.

Everyone else has to bend over backwards as to not offend Islam, yet muslim demonstrators can hold up the most offensive placards on the streets of Britain and nothing happens to them. Hold up something half that offensive yourself and you will be instantly arrested. Sharia Courts, which we now have, treat women as lesser citizens than men, and they are operating here with the full endorsement of the Government. So we now have Saudi Arabian legal practices operating in Brtain. In Saudi Arabia you would be arrested if you owned a Bible, were caught drinking alcohol, or kissed your partner in public.

I just hope I am dead before we adopt all of Saudi Arabia's policies and practises - something we will be doing in the next 30 or 40 years as more and more muslims arrive here and are born here. Look at the treatment of that Dutch MP who came here this week. He was originally banned from entering Britain because a dickhead called Lord Ahmed, who has never been elected by anyone, threatened to mobilise 10 thousand muslims to picket Parliament if he did. So the Government pandered to this guy (Ahmed) and banned the Dutch MP. This week it was lifted and he arrived.

Those militant islamists who greeted him here with their 'Islam will take over the world', 'behead anyone who insults Islam' placards - were of course given full police protection. Try standing in a street in Saudi Arabia with 'Chritianity will take over the world' and 'Behead anyone who criticises Christianity' placards and see how long it is before you are either thrown in jail or stoned to death! I feel very sorry for young kids today, because when they are middle-aged it will be hell-on-earth living in this country...

I suspect, but dont know, that the reason for their prosecution is very, very much simpler. Perhaps something like this:

Bunch of white fascist racists called the BNP tootle along, not getting very far and generally are ignored.

Unemployment soars. Load of people get pissed off with the Labour Party and the other mainstream parties and start supporting the BNP in elections. Dont bother to read the party constitution and take Griffin's word that the BNP is a nice party that your gran would be proud of.

Anti-fascist groups, Jews, Muslims etc start getting concerned with BNP electoral success and remember the story of Mosley and the Fascists of the Thirties, Hitler and Mussoline and the National Front out of which the BNP sprung.

People start taking the BNP seriously and read the Constitution. Groups note that the BNP has in essence got a racist Constitution so they make a complaint against the BNP via the organisation that is formed to deal with such complaints the EHRC. The EHRC thinks there is a case to answer and proceeds.

I have no more idea if this is the case than you have about your "commonsense" idea. To be perfectly honest I dont really care either way. What is indisputable and has been implicitly accepted by Griffin is that the BNP constitution is racist.

Secondly whether the EHRC appears inherently racist to you, personally because it brings a case against the poor, old BNP and not the Asian Dub Foundation or the fact that I probably wouldnt be allowed to join the South Asian Karnatika Dance Group is not really relevant to me whatsoever. In terms of prioritisation, the fact that an increasingly mainstream political party has a vile racist constitution and is thus worthy of being brought to book is much, much more important.

I have nothing more to say on the subject.

Cheers
David

"I just believe in democracy, and I've said I can understand how some people would vote for them if they are poor, totally ingored, and the BNP are the only political organisation that has ever come near their street. I said previously that if I was from Northern Ireland I would respect the legitimacy of a Sinn Fein MP in my constituency, even if someone close to me had been killed by the IRA (Sinn Fein is of course the political wing of the IRA). If they are voted in they should be treated like anyone else who gets voted in. So the BNP deserve to be viewed like anyone else"

As a believer in democracy, which of the following has a non-democratic constitution i.e. they do not allow certain minority groups from joining -
BNP, Coservative Party, Labour Party, Lib Dems. Correct the BNP so they are treated like every other party. If the Lib Dems excluded an ethnic group they too would have a case brought against them.
As for the poor, totally ignored bit I put in another thread what the Labour party had done for the poor in terms of minimum wage, Surestart scheme, increased maternity benefit etc etc. Why just come out with the same old BNP inspired codswallop. The Labour Party know that without the working class support they are going to be stuffed electorally. Why would they ignore them?


"The pro British elements within them, namely wanting the culture, heritage, traditions, and language of this country retained - when the main 3 parties are doing everything they can to destroy all of that - I do find appealing"
This is nonsense, the Labour party via the National Lottery had done a huge amount to protect the heritage, culture and traditions of this country. The wealth of free museums, art galleries, festivals, outdoor events, fetes, music etc is enormous in this country. The culture of this country is a melting pot arising out of its incredibly rich history. The labout party has supported this.

"I support their views on immigration too - we havent got the room, the transport network, hosptials and schools cant cope as it is, we are the 3rd most overcrowded country on earth yet these idiots in power are allowing the highest immigration in over one thousand years into Britain."

The figures you use are nonsense. Do a google search instead of swallowing whole some BNP info or whatever it is you use to get your nonsensical figures.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/geo_p ... on-density Even if you just separated out England as by far the most populated part of the UK from the UK it would still be in the 20s and nowhere near 3rd.

And finally, do you have any Muslim friends, Max? I have and they are nothing whatsoever like the anti-Islamic load of old codswallop you come up with. There are some Westernised Muslims, there are some moderate Muslims, there are some extremist Muslims. Bit like white English people really, there are some civlised ones, some out and out pillocks and some who would be better kept indoors.

Thats yer lot from me Max.

You make some interesting points, but I stand by all the things I said. I didnt get any of my facts or figures from the BNP. I have never read any of their propoganda, I've just seen them interviewed on the TV a number of times. I do believe that sucessive Governments (and especially this one) have done everything they can to dismantle the culture, heritage, traditions, and language, of this country. When do you ever hear English spoken in the street or on a bus in London? I've lived in this city all my life and it is now almost totally foreign. It is very rare you would have English neighbours in London now. St George's Day is marked by a reasonably small, largely unpublicised, affair in Trafalgar Square each year. St Patricks Day is a massive event where streets are closed off and what resembles an American street festival takes place (much much bigger than St Georges Day). When Eid, Diwali, and others happen, several large parks are taken over for very lage events. The, for want of a better term, indigeonous population of this city, is now regarded as being less important than ethnic minorites - as these things prove. Having some museums in London hardly counter-balances all of that. Walk around this city on Rememberance Day next month and have a look at the small number of people wearing poppy's. Go the gigantic Lebanese area that is Edgware Road (and all the other streets around it which covers the large area from Marble Arch up to Maida Vale) and see how many of them are wearing poppy's. At the most virtually none. Probably literally none. They would not even have heard of it, let alone consider supporting it - whilst living a very nice life on the legacy of the sacrificie of millions of Brits in two world wars. And people cant even use that old chesnut of 'we invaded their country in the days of the Empire'. We didnt. The Lebanon was a French colony, nothing to do with us at all. // On this question of immigration, I have heard from a number of sources that we have the highest for over 1,000 years now. // Lastly, do I have any muslim friends? No I havent.

Hi Max,
Your post suggests to me that how people look at immigration depends very much on their mindset. You seem to view immigration as a threat. I see it as something positive in terms of different cultures. Obviously living in London you will see much more of a melting pot of cultures than I do in Blackpool! You can go days without seeing a black guy in Blackpool and most of the Polish people who were working here have gone home now due to the recession.
However, what you experience in London is no different from any other major world capital in the West. If you go to Paris or New York you see a similar melting pot of cultures. When I lived in London, I found it exciting not threatening - the fact that there were West Indian shops with funny looking vegetables, Indian shops with amazing smelling spices, Italian patisseries with fantastic cakes and savouries etc. etc. All of this was to me, one of the main advantages of spending time in a big city.
In Manchester, I made my way to see the Mela in the park which was fantastic to see the dance troupes both tradiitional and modern. I've never felt threatened by that stuff or as if my own lifestyle is being forced to change. It hasnt. I have chosen to get involved in this stuff to a certain extent.
You make a comment about Remembrance Sunday. All I can say is that in the North West, Remembrance Sunday is treated with increasing rather than decreasing respect. You should also remember that many of the soldiers fighting for Britain in the Second World War, came from what was formerly known as the Empire i.e India, Nepal etc as well as Poles and various Eastern Europeans who fled to the UK to fight the Nazis. It was Joanna Lumleys campaign to support the Ghurkas from Nepal who had fought so hard in the British Army. Of course as you say, many immigrants have no connection with the Empire.
Cheers
D

[quote]I believe 99.9% of the people who vote for them are NOT the jackboot, skinhead thug, element that used to be their core support when they were a smaller organisation.[/quote]

Then I believe you're naive. You might have had a point of you said "a small number," or even "a sizeable percentage," but to claim 99.9% of BNP support have no ties/sympathy for the old NF is something I couldn't agree with.

[quote]Most of their voters are people who dont want their way of life destroyed and who are genuinely scared for the future if mass, out of control, immigration continues.[/quote]

'Way of life destroyed'? WTF??? Typical BNP-like emotive language I'm afraid. Wouldn't 'changed' be a more accurate description, given that culture is never constant anyway? And what do you mean by 'out of control immigration'? How is it out of control? You could argue that the rules surrounding immigration are too relaxed (I might not agree but you'd be expressing your opinion much more sensibly), and that you want measures put in place that would give local councils and services better chances of adapting to the strain in larger cities. That would be, I think, a more reasonable point than just resorting to Daily Mail-type sensationalism. The immigration system in this country is as controlled as most other laws. Yes, some people slip in, illegally, just like some drivers still speed while avoiding speed cameras, but to say it's 'out of control' is like saying speeding is out of control. It's just no accurate.

[quote]Also, it seems to me that the more islamified we get the most changes we will make to accomodate them. We now have Sharia Courts operating in Britain.[/quote]

Sharia courts have to work within the British justice system and all participants have to abide by our laws above all else. These courts' decisions cannot undermine the nations laws. They're really just private deals between individuals really. I don't like them myself because the simple truth is that lots of young, and mainly female, Muslims may be pressured by people within their communities to abide by Sharia rulings. When it comes to divorce settlements, especially, the wives would be much better off going to a British court (if they couldn't come to an agreement privately). But even if we might agree on Sharia, it is of no consequence to immigration or the BNP's views. Sharia is just a convenient stick in which to beat 'foreigners' with. What you might like to know is that money-lending is a much fairer system under Sharia and the banks have to find other ways of earning money from loans as making a profit from a loan isn't permitted. Maybe there'd be a lot more poor families still in their homes now if British law protected them from loan sharks, eh?

[quote]a muslim woman being told by her husband that she can not show her face in public and has to wear a mask, as well as telling her she has to walk around on hot summers days wearing a tent, is something that would not be acceptable if black or white Britons did it.[/quote]

That's just wrong. Muslim men cannot make their wives do anything more than a black/white man can under British law. Muslim women are protected equally and Muslim men have no special privileges.

[quote]Everyone else has to bend over backwards as to not offend Islam, yet muslim demonstrators can hold up the most offensive placards on the streets of Britain and nothing happens to them.[/quote]

That may have been true in some instances and it's wrong. This says more about the incompetence of individual officers etc, than the Muslims with the offensive placards. We can all make offensive placards no matter what creed we are.

[quote]Sharia Courts, which we now have, treat women as lesser citizens than men, and they are operating here with the full endorsement of the Government.[/quote]

Again, all women are treated equally under the British justice system and any Sharia court that goes against this will have any illegal judgement overturned.

[quote]So we now have Saudi Arabian legal practices operating in Brtain.[/quote]

So what? They're just legal practices that have to live within British law. Name me one Saudi legal practice that can legally overrule a British law within Britain.

[quote]I just hope I am dead before we adopt all of Saudi Arabia's policies and practises - something we will be doing in the next 30 or 40 years as more and more muslims arrive here and are born here.[/quote]

Weren't the NF saying something along those lines 30 years ago? They were wrong.

[quote]Look at the treatment of that Dutch MP who came here this week. He was originally banned from entering Britain because a dickhead called Lord Ahmed, who has never been elected by anyone, threatened to mobilise 10 thousand muslims to picket Parliament if he did. So the Government pandered to this guy (Ahmed) and banned the Dutch MP. This week it was lifted and he arrived.[/quote]

It just shows you how much of an influence these Muslims have then, doesn't it? They lost.

[quote]Those militant islamists who greeted him here with their 'Islam will take over the world', 'behead anyone who insults Islam' placards - were of course given full police protection.[/quote]

Of course they were given police protection. You started your reply to me by stating, and I quote: "I just believe in democracy" and now it seems you have an issue with people in a free country having police protection if it's considered they're a threat. I don't like Nick Griffin but I have no issue with him having police protection if he needs it because I think any country that doesn't take the safety of it's citizens seriously is a slightly backward one. And as for the placard signs you quoted: I never saw one about beheading anyone who insults Islam. That is inciting hatred and illegal and I would expect anyone holding such a placard be arrested. If you saw such a placard then you should complain to the relevant authorities. Can you provide a link to an article/picture where it shows this?

I'll finish off by telling you how baffled I was at your reply, in general. If you look at my previous post to you I basically just asked if I'd made a fair assessment of you. You post more BNP-related paragraphs than anyone and a good proportion of it is very sympathetic to their cause, despite your repeated assurances to not being a supporter.

Sam Slater, Have a look at these two links. I will answer more of your points tomorrow.

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur ... safe%3Doff

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... tests.html

Neither link mentions beheading anyone, as you stated. The pic of Muslims with placards calling for people to be slain isn't nice, but is it recent? That pic could have been taken years ago (the protests about the Danish cartoon controversy for instance).

P.s. Enclose links in angled brackets, like so: but without the spaces. It's easy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/1 ... rally-flag

Max,
I can remember when I was a lad you could go out at night and have no chance of inadvertently bumping into a fascist. Now the city centres in the UK seem to be littered with them. We've been totally ignored down our street by mainstream politicians. The Anti Fascist League are the only people who seem to care.

Have you seen these fascist types, Max,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... reets.html

They look like they've come from outer space, not like the folks in my street at all. They look like a complete bunch of nutters. I put it down to the mainstream parties bending over backwards for these creeps. I bet the vast majority of them are on benefits, the skivers.

And as for the media, there's the BNP leaflets, the Daily Mail, the Daily Telegraph, the Daily Express all bleating on about immigration and how we are being totally swamped by Muslims. I reckon we could do with a lot more of those Muslims rather than those tattooed, skinhead fascists. And thats just the women!

And Max, do you notice the Nazi salutes in the photos? Grandad spent most of the war years shelling those bastards. They are destroying our culture, heritage and history. And its about time a party came along with the guts to do something about it. I worry what this country is going to be like in 40 years if toerags like this lot get away with it.

Just a thought
David

Hi Max,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRKk2K3fMk0
So the BNP has changed has it?
Cheers
David