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Just out of curiosity, how many copies does an average R18 video sell in the UK? (If this isn't a deep commercial secret.)

I was surprised to read somewhere recently that in the US a reasonably popular series will only sell 4 or 5 thousand copies of a 'volume'. Scaling this down to the size of the UK market (and making a further allowance for the restricted distribution system through licensed sex shops), we must be talking about hundreds rather than thousands of copies. Then factoring in the cost of licensing (?1,000 plus to the BBFC for each video), and I begin to see why the producers aren't keen on paying higher fees to the performers!

Real sense here, If you produced a 18R for UK market only you would loose money. Only the broadcast & World rights added to it make money. Most distribution companies offer about ?1500-?3000 for a UK movie if you are lucky enough to find one with money. And the question of how many 18R's do you sell of a title. I have sold 5000 of EACH FT1 & FT2...So ask around this would make it in the top ten video sell through chart and unless someone can tell me different.

Phil McC

David J wrote:
>
> Just out of curiosity, how many copies does an average R18
> video sell in the UK? (If this isn't a deep commercial
> secret.)
>
> I was surprised to read somewhere recently that in the US a
> reasonably popular series will only sell 4 or 5 thousand
> copies of a 'volume'.

I don't know if this is an accurate figure though.
Remember you can rent porn videos in the US too. US porn companies also make a fair bit through cable TV sales.

> Scaling this down to the size of the
> UK market (and making a further allowance for the restricted
> distribution system through licensed sex shops), we must be
> talking about hundreds rather than thousands of copies. Then
> factoring in the cost of licensing (?1,000 plus to the BBFC
> for each video), and I begin to see why the producers aren't
> keen on paying higher fees to the performers!

Yes, the UK looks like a cottage industry by comparison. Private are quoted on the NASDAQ and are trying to raise multi-millions with a new share issue, while Phil McCavity and Ben Dover are trying to get British distributors and sex shops to give them even a half-decent price for their products. Until the market is opened up, it's going to be the people down the chain, from the film-makers to the girls who get less and less for their efforts, while Sullivan and the Gold Bros. are buying football clubs to play with!

What would really open up the market place is if the British producers of xxx were granted liscenses to sell their own product, without having to be controlled by the owners of the sex shops,we could still sell trade to the shops yet also having the chance to compete with the rest of the world.
This would give producers a greater return of profit enabling a bigger budget for production which could only be a good thing for all.
I as an actor now turned new producer am sometimes gobsmacked at the costs behind the scenes. With the sudden impact of new technology the expense to stay in the for front of this industry is frightening. To promote yourself and your product at all the world sex trade shows is a job in itself.
I got in this business because I wanted to knob as many hot chicks as possible, and no matter what the expense I am still at it.And will continue to.
I take my hat off to all who at least put themselves in the frame
and produce xxx, Keep on fucking!
Marino

Interesting replies, though I see that in my original question I stupidly forgot that the US market is shared between dozens of producers and hundreds (thousands?) of titles, whereas the R18 market in the UK is shared between a much smaller number of licensed videos.

Marino wrote:
>
> What would really open up the market place is if the British
> producers of xxx were granted liscenses to sell their own
> product, without having to be controlled by the owners of the
> sex shops,we could still sell trade to the shops yet also
> having the chance to compete with the rest of the world.
> This would give producers a greater return of profit enabling
> a bigger budget for production which could only be a good
> thing for all.

This is what people like me have been on about for years, the monopoly on the market is no good for the fans, the producers or the performers. All the profit is taken out of the system by a few people who don't invest unless they absolutely have to.

Marino, or Phil or Ben or anyone who knows: Why is it that all the well established names in the adult game have been unable to break the monopoly? I guess it's partly because no-one else has the financial clout of the Sullivans et al of the world.

I presume that you guys would jump at the chance to sell R18s mail order legally or to supply a different distributor who gave a fair price for the product and sold it in a good environment, like the Hustler shop in LA, which is styled like a really good bookshop. That's what we need: people with a commitment to quality rather than a fast buck, because you can make more in the long run. Probably wishful thinking but what the hell.

> I as an actor now turned new producer am sometimes gobsmacked
> at the costs behind the scenes. With the sudden impact of new
> technology the expense to stay in the for front of this
> industry is frightening. To promote yourself and your product
> at all the world sex trade shows is a job in itself.
> I got in this business because I wanted to knob as many hot
> chicks as possible, and no matter what the expense I am still
> at it.And will continue to.

That's the kind of honesty you have to admire.

> I take my hat off to all who at least put themselves in the
> frame
> and produce xxx, Keep on fucking!
> Marino

I agree, even though some may not make the grade, at least they tried. Though let's keep that word "quality" in mind there too!

Good luck Marino!

Marino said:


"What would really open up the market place is if the British producers of xxx were granted liscenses to sell their own product, without having to be controlled by the owners of the sex shops,we could still sell trade to the shops yet also having the chance to compete with the rest of the world.
This would give producers a greater return of profit enabling a bigger budget for production which could only be a good thing for all."

I say:

Producers are at liberty to apply for a sex shop licence - and sell their own product - just like everyone else. No ones stopping them. Nor are they controlled by owners of sex shops - unless they choose to be. There's absolutely nothing stopping them competing with the rest of the world - except maybe a substandard product. Shaking cameras, no lighting sense, no script and bargain basement girls without any class are not going to impress anyone at Private, or Vivid.

Sure, if producers could sell their product direct to consumers they would have a greater return on their investment. But it doesn't work like that does it? Product has to be DISTRIBUTED to reach the far corners of the country and indeed the globe. You cannot expect the world to get on a bus and beat a path to the doorstep of your licensed sex shop just to buy your movie, however good it might be. Nor, could you service national and international demand via mail order. Hey, if you're lucky you might sell 2-300 copies. But that's not nearly enough for a viable film production business.

Also, contrary to what Pasta said. The totally inappropriate business model - pile it high, sell it cheap - that certain soon to be skint - producers have adopted may work fine for Sainsburys, but not for porno! Not unless, you can sell a copy of your vid to half the population inside a week! We are selling adult movies here, not tins of baked beans, or fuckin' Pot Noodles! The object of a business is to grow. If it does not it will stagnate and eventually die. Growing can only be achieved by churning PROFITS back into the business. But of course you must make those profits before that can be done.

I recently heard of a well known (on this forum) British producer who had made an appointment to go and see if he could interest a British distributor in his wares. Now, the distributor being an astute, but fair, businessman already had a price per video in mind to offer the producer before he walked through the door. Let's say that price was ?10.00 (a hypothetical price) So, the distributor is prepared to offer the British producer ?10.00 per finished unit. So, the producer turns up and after exchange the usual pleasantries goes on to say that he couldn't possibly take a penny less than ?4.50 per unit (hypothetical, but proportionate.) The distributor is gobsmacked, he's ready to pay this guy ?10.00 per unit. But hey, if this producer wants to give his product away, who's he to stop him? So, being a business man first and foremost he accepts the producer's 'hard driven' bargain.

Afterwards he confides to a colleague of mine. "That well known producer guy is a fucking idiot! He hasn't got he slightest clue about business. He can barley produce a movie, record it onto video and produce the packaging, for the money he is selling them for. Never mind reinvesting profits to grow his business. He's cutting his own throat, while strangling the goose that lays the golden egg."

So, it's not always distributors who are to blame. The moral of the story is course, that guys who are a dab hand at wielding the old camcorder should probably stick to that and leave business to folk who have got a little more sense.

Dr No.

The only part you probably don't understand is the shop owners who are very few set the price take it or leave it, and as they are buying US/Europe product themselves and certifing it. They have the attitude other than Soho there is very few shops in each city so they think, you will buy whatever they offer...eg today..I commented to a distributer he didn't have my DVD's in his shops, He said I have some American ones in them,,I said but nothing British,,,he said when they come in looking for wank material they don't leave empty handed and as I have the only shop in the town they can't go anywhere else...Is this true I ask ??????yes.
I appllied for a sex shop licence for my premises and got told send us(council) ?1000 and we will have a meeting and tell you to F OFF...These licences don't excist wake up..
The answer ?????????????

Phil McC

Thanks Phil.
Glad you understand.
It would be lovely to some some of you guys out there who know so much about production and distribution.
I have been around for sometime, but each day in this industry there are so many things to learn about.
Would it not be better for everyone to stop taking cheap shots at each other and actually help, for the greater of the adult industry in the U.k
I am only too glad to receive advice on the best ways to produce and distribute films,
I see how hard Phil and Ben work everyday and night to get their product out, I know alot of people think it's camera on, cock up and home to wait for the cheques to roll in.
As these guys are two of the leading producers in the U.K.
They deserve all the rewards that this industry has to offer.
Whether you are a fan of these guys or not. At least we are flying the flag and will take to the yanks or anyone else who wants it up em.

"Producers are at liberty to apply for a sex shop licence - and sell their own product - just like everyone else. No ones stopping them."

on the contrary - local authorities stop applications for licensed sex shops almost daily.

"Product has to be DISTRIBUTED to reach the far corners of the country and indeed the globe. You cannot expect the world to get on a bus and beat a path to the doorstep of your licensed sex shop just to buy your movie, however good it might be. Nor, could you service national and international demand via mail order. "

perhaps you are unaware that postal distribution of bbfc certificated r18 videos makes you liable for fines of up to ?20,000 - a constraint upon trade most business people don't have to contend with. the internet is a pragmatic and very effective means of retailing pornography. they're among some of the most successful business models on the net.

a further constraint upon the industry is the absence of a rental sector - again due to the extremely limited outlets for r18 material. this is a major revenue generator for usa/continental producers/distributors.

i agree about the need for people with proper business management skills. it's hardly surpirsing though, that an industry which has historically been hobbled by state censorship and societal hipocrisy, has yet to develop into a fully mature market sector.

on a personal note; vivid and private are as dull as ditchwater! if that's all we can aspire to, i'd rather take up watching the local over 80's bowling league. (been some close matches lately!)