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Re: Soldiers

Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 7:51 am
by DavidS
There was little evidence of this type of abuse in WESTERN Europe, either by the Axis or Allies during World War II. I am talking about prisoners of war, I appreciate that there was considerable abuse by the Axis itelligence services on people who were not considered prisoners of war. However soldiers who had custody over other soldiers generally did not abuse them, so the education argument is a none starter. The problem seems to have been lack of supervision in Iraq.

Re: Soldiers

Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 10:38 am
by Pervert
Part of it is the being in a foreign land. Anyone who has ever seen the lager lout brigade confronting the Greek or Spanish plod while on holiday will know that they seem to think they can do what they like because:

a) They're British (and therefore, in their minds, not constrained to obey local laws); and
b) On holiday (and therefore, in their minds . . . . you get my drift).

Some elements of HM Forces demonstrate the worst aspects of the lager lout mentality in peace time, plus the "us and them" aspect is instilled in them at an early part of their training. For those that can be bothered, a search involving the murder of a holiday rep on Cyprus by three soldiers (who might have been able to avoid justice and destroy evidence if they had managed to get back into their base, leaving the local police kicking their heels for hours at the gates) might be enlightening.

I still believe the majority of troops are doing a good job in what they've been told to do in Iraq, attempting to put a human face on what is at this moment an occupying force, and trying to win hearts and minds. Sadly, there are brainless types in all walks of life who never consider consequences, and thus some allegations of treatment of Iraqis will prove to be true.

Re: Soldiers

Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 1:01 pm
by DavidS
With the vast amount of personel involved it would be surprising indeed if there hadn't been some abuse. However I am unaware of any widespread abuse, paticularly sexual abuse by either side. There was of course widespread abuse in the far eastern war with Japan.

Re: Soldiers

Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 1:32 pm
by Fastbike
If you want to get some intelligence out of someone , then it's usual to "soften them up a bit" first. This is a slippery slope , so while leaving someone cold and alone and "accidently " sleep deprived is something you could get away with, what we have seen is not . The Americans have not only been immoral , they have been dumb .
To ramble on a bit ,
A solidier can refuse to carry out an order if it is illegal , and clearly the Americans pictured would have been within their rights to do this .
I was always impressed with the squaddies I used to meet when my Brother in Law was in , they never made you feel excluded , even though you knew that they had a Faustian pact between each other , and between them and their unit , so I can believe the Bristish are better behaved .


Re: Soldiers

Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 5:41 pm
by DavidS
But it's heroes of their country when the guns begin to shoot!

Re: Soldiers

Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 11:33 am
by Ace
Actually, whilst Andre does have some intresting points, he is a little off the mark.
A vast majority do not join up as there is nothing else for them. Rigerous checks are made before a civilian can join, so its NOT a case of going to yer local recruiting centre and signing on the dotted line. Excellent training in most trades is the reason a lot join up. You will not recieve better training than in HM Armed Forces.
He is correct about the louts that join and bring with them their souped up escorts et al. There are a LOT of bad apples, not just a few. Bullying is still an issue, as is rasiscm in the Armed Forces.
However, speaking as someone who until 8 months ago knew better than most here, the boys deployed in Iraq are doing an excellent job, and I will say this, The British Army pisses on any other in the world.
The Officers are not all Public School Toffs, but born leaders.

Oh, I STILL have MY Nova, alloys and blacked out windows, even as a 'civvy' its STILL a Bad Boy car ;-)


Re: Soldiers

Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 7:30 pm
by DavidS
I have little time for people who go on about various British institutions being the best in the world. It usually comes from people who have no knowledge of other countries. However. the British Armed Forces almost certainly are the best in the world. Since WWII and probably before, the Forces, especially the army, have dealt with various conflicts extremely well. I can't think of any other army that has done so well.