egafd.com

Sorry to start another thread on a simular subject that Caractacus started, but since that threads topic is about terrorism (from both sides) I thought I'd start another on the 'rights' Jews 'may/may not' have on claiming Israel.

Here's what I know...

Why do most people assume that Israel belongs to the Palastinians? Aren't Jews allowed a country of their own? Hindu's have their land, Buddists have theirs. Christians & Muslims have land coming out of their ears, so why not Jews?

From what I remember (from a few books I've read), the Israelites were enslaved by the Egyptians and taken to Egypt as slaves. The Philistines had a small patch of land in the south west corner of the region -what is now 'The Gaza Strip- and originally, Israel covered land further east, including Palestine and even over the River Jordan into parts of -what is now- Jordan.

The Philistine States actually covered a little more land than the Gaze Strip does, but most of that extra land is now called Egypt! The Palastinians don't seem to mind that Egypt has taken hundreds of square miles of their land too! Another point to mention is that the original Philistines weren't Sematic 'or' Arabic in origin. They were decended from the Greek line of Europeans, so why do the Arabic peoples of today feel so strongly about a few thousand Greeks?

Once the Israelites returns to their homeland they had to fight off the Canaanites to reclaim their land. (the Canaanite peoples tried multiple invasions of Israel before Eygpt took control of the whole area). The Israelites lived under their own rule (a loose statement as there were more than one tribe of Israelites), until they lived under Assyrian, and then Babylonian rule. Then a well know Greek army, led by 'Alexander the Great' conquered the whole region for himself. When he died the region 'yo-yo'd' between Babylonian & Egyptian rule until finally the Romans came!

Now....... a lot of this stuff happened before Judaism even came about as a religion, and 'all' of this happened before Christ was born. Muhammad wasn't born until 600 years after the Romans invaded the region, with it taking another century until Arabic peoples started getting exited by his teachings.

After that there's the Christian Crusades from the west and Muslim invasions from the east fighting eachother for this plot of land. (Just googled.......even the Mongols got this far south of the the Sea of Galilea!) Only 'Attila the Hun' gave the Israelites a breather!

Now, I'm not at all condoning the 'Israel of todays' behaviour, but I'm questioning the motives behind the general condemnation, from Islamic countries. It's true that I believe the U.S.A and the U.K. would like a powerfull Jewish state in the region, rather than another powerfull Islamic state, but I also think Islamic motives are the same. Since the original Palastinians were Greek immigrants -worshipping Greek Gods- why would the Muslims care that Jews were interested in the land? Do Islamic people care that Muslims slaughter Christians throughout African & Indonesia on a daily basis? Would they care if Hindu's moved into Buddhist land? I doubt it. They care about the Palastinians for one reason. The Palastinians of today are mainy Muslim. In the past half the Philistines were either Pegan or Jewish: it's only the spread of Islam throughout the Palastine's thats got all the Islamic countries in a lather.

It's sad really because before the 2nd WW and throughout the past, Jews have been safer, and tolorated more living amongst Muslims. Since the Catholic Church set out to brandish the Jews as the people who condemned Christ to death, Christian nations have persecuted the Sematic peoples living amongst them. Also, Islam was a great religion based on scripture, the sciences, and tolerence of other faiths...........until recently.

Israel has been claimed, taken away, and re-claimed by the Israelites for over 3000 years now. The original Philistines were Greek, and apart from Assyrian & Babylonian invasions, no Arab peoples lay claim to the land at all.

It was the numerous invasions of Israel that forced Jews into a nomadic lifestyle whereby the found themselves throughout Europe. Most European Jews are descended from these nomadic Israelites who descended from..............a larger Israel, than the Israel of today.

Today, Israel is smaller than it was originally. The Palastinians have more land than they did before as the 'West Bank' was all originally part of Israel. The original Philistines only contolled land where the 'Gaza Strip' is now which covered a little more eastwards into southern Israel, and a little more southwards into Egypt.

Syria, Jordan & Palastine has gained land over the last 3000 years by claiming bits of Israel between all the conquering and re-claiming or each war. Eygpt has gained a little Palastinian land too. Palastinians may say that their ancestors were from a certain region, now under Israels control, but they don't say that their ancestors stole it from the Israelites to start with.

All in all, I see an isolated patch of land thats been re-claimed by the Jews. It's the same patch of land they've had to re-claim for thousands of years but people still want a piece of that land. It's the only piece of land the Jews can call their own, on the whole planet, while Islam has a quarter of the worlds land mass to call home. I'm not Jewish, but it must seem really frustrating that the only patch of land they have any rights to lay claim to, has to be defended so much from another invasion from the east.

It just doesn't seem fair.........................


P.s.... I only found out the Philistines were of Greek origin.......it ws something I never knew until today.

We used to have a real history buff on the forum, who would have been able to argue the whos, whys and whatevers of the case more eloquently than the rest of us. Needless to say, we are talking ancient history with much of the case for and against Israel.

Last century there was a move to give the Jewish people a homeland: one of the M islands in the Indian Ocean (I think Mauritius----bit tough on those folk already living there. It was turned down, though, because the island wasn't mentioned in the Bible!

Having three major religions all revering one city doesn't help either: Jerusalem is holy to Jews, Muslims and Christians, and got on quite nicely thank you until some Popes decided it was an abomination that it was in possession of the heathens and organised the crusades. Don't think politics is a new thing----the corrupt bastards that ran the Vatican (and Avignon) in the middle ages were quite adept at lying and manipulating.

Much of the claim for a Jewish homeland rests on the Balfour declaration in 1918. At the same time, however, the European nations (Britain and France) were setting up countries where before had been only nomadic peoples. Saudi Arabia, anyone? In trying to appease these new allies in the region, the promise for Palestine went out the window and the Jewish militants turned to terrorism after the second world war.

There are rights and wrongs on both sides, undoubtedly, and one cannot help but admire the way the Israelis kept their country going in the face of several attacks. In the last 25 years or so, though, the Jewish state has become the thing it hated most, a twisted shadow of Nazism. Understandable, perhaps, when you have so many millions of people baying for your blood----but awful just the same.

In the early 1980s, Israel allowed atrocities to be committed by its allies in Lebanon, and the world just watched. Today, Israel is committing the atrocities itself, with American weapons and technology, and the world again watches.

Sam Slater said " Aren't Jews allowed a country of their own? Hindu's have their land, Buddists have theirs. Christians & Muslims have land coming out of their ears, so why not Jews?"
Thats an extreme simplification. Ethnicity and religion aren't interchangeable.
I assume the reference to Hindus (not Hindu's) means India but thats multi-ethnic and multi-religious. And what country do Buddhists "own"?

Mart

Sam, a few points here...

"Most European Jews are descended from these nomadic Israelites"

Not true. Most European Jews originate from Europe. The history is that of a Central European group that, faced with Islam to the East and Christianity to the West, decided to opt for Jewish neutrality (bad strategic move, but that's another subject).

Besides this, the "right to return" is a dubious claim in any event. For example, the Anglo Saxons (dominant British group) swept in from Germany, pushing the Celtic "native Britons" to the North and West. Should the Anglo Saxons be driven out of their semi-detached homes in Birmingham so the Welsh and Irish can reclaim their "birthright"? Because that would be the equivalent of what happened to the Palestinians. People who had peacefully occupied land for many centuries were suddenly driven out by an aggressive bunch of nationalistic European Jews.

And let's burst one more myth: Jews were ALWAYS welcome and allowed to live in Palestine. There has been a Middle Eastern Jewish population living peacefully alongside Muslims there and through the region for hundreds of years. Any Jew who wanted to immigrate to Palestine was able to do so. But the Zionists were rightwing extremists who wanted to ethnically cleanse the region of non-Jews, and that's what they've been doing systematically for 60 years.

Nobody has the right to steal someone else's land and call it a "homeland".

>

erm so we best not have any dealing with Australians and the USA then going by that way of thinking!!


Seems a lot of experts in the cause of Lebanon and I will admit I aint an expert in much but it seems to me that there is a mass hysteria to criticise Israel because it is basically sponsored by those much hated Americans and that because they have much better equipped armies and a hi-tech arsenal of weapons ... but if the Lebanese had these same weapons at their disposal can you imagine what carnage THEY would be inflicting??

Civilians are always going to be killed in any war and in the 2nd World War was used by great effect by US as we bombed the living daylights out of German Cities killing many thousands of "innocent" women and children. So you could say it is a well used morale zapping tactic.

crofter wrote:

> Seems a lot of experts in the cause of Lebanon and I will admit
> I aint an expert in much but it seems to me that there is a
> mass hysteria to criticise Israel because it is basically
> sponsored by those much hated Americans and that because they
> have much better equipped armies and a hi-tech arsenal of
> weapons ... but if the Lebanese had these same weapons at their
> disposal can you imagine what carnage THEY would be
> inflicting??

Let's stick to the facts rather than the "if pigs could fly" scenario.

Israel is bombing the crap out of Lebanese CIVILIANS. This is sometimes known as terrorism (but not when the IDF does it, apparently).

Over 400 dead and 500,000 refugees. Bombs dropped on ambulances. UN observers deliberately killed. Children being killed daily in Lebanon and Gazxa. That's what's happening.

crofter wrote:

Civilians are always going to be killed in any war and in the
2nd World War was used by great effect by US as we bombed the
living daylights out of German Cities killing many thousands of
"innocent" women and children. So you could say it is a well
used morale zapping tactic.

The 2nd World War taught many lessons one of the biggest being that the bombing of civilians doesn't work.

Far from being "a well used morale zapping tatic" it unites the people.

It also creates better defence against 'land' invasion which is why Israel has decided not to go into the area in this way.

[quote]Thats an extreme simplification. Ethnicity and religion aren't interchangeable.
I assume the reference to Hindus (not Hindu's) means India but thats multi-ethnic and multi-religious. And what country do Buddhists "own"?[/quote]

A simplification?: yes. Though ethnicity and religion are different things, they can be interchangable to a certain degree. Also, I wasn't saying Hindus 'owned' India. It's true that Hindus have to share India with a lot of Sikhs, but I was talking about 'homeland', not 'ownership'. They 'homeland' of the Israelites & original Jews is Israel & Judah (southern Israel).

[quote]Sam, a few points here...

"Most European Jews are descended from these nomadic Israelites"

Not true. Most European Jews originate from Europe. The history is that of a Central European group that, faced with Islam to the East and Christianity to the West, decided to opt for Jewish neutrality (bad strategic move, but that's another subject).[/quote]

I have serious doubts about that theory S.B. I accept that there have been 'marrying into' and 'conversion' to Judaism amongst Europeans, but the majorty of European Jews have some line of descent from nomadic Israelites that migrated through Europe to escape the constant invasions from the Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Philistines, Romans, Christian Crusades, Mongols, and Islamic armies.

Europeans are made up of Celtic, Nordic, Germanic, Slavic and Latin peoples. I don't see that amount of diversity -with regards to facial features- when it comes to 'most' Jews I've come across. They 'mostly' have Sematic/Arabic facial features which points to a narrow 'line of descendants' within the gene pool.

[quote]Besides this, the "right to return" is a dubious claim in any event. For example, the Anglo Saxons (dominant British group) swept in from Germany, pushing the Celtic "native Britons" to the North and West. Should the Anglo Saxons be driven out of their semi-detached homes in Birmingham so the Welsh and Irish can reclaim their "birthright"?[/quote]

You're right there! In fact I brung up this subject a few months ago in another thread (forgot what it was about). Although I must say it's a little different as the Celts of Ireland & Wales have their own land and which they can call home, unlike the Jews (if Israel was handed back into Palastinian hands).

[quote]And let's burst one more myth: Jews were ALWAYS welcome and allowed to live in Palestine. There has been a Middle Eastern Jewish population living peacefully alongside Muslims there and through the region for hundreds of years. Any Jew who wanted to immigrate to Palestine was able to do so.[/quote]

Thats so true S.B. Jews & Muslims have lived happily together for over a 1000 years but........ this instance was only 'ok' with Muslims if they controlled the power of the nation in which they were all sharing. I doubt the Jews within the Israel of today would have minded living amongst Islamic Palastinians. It's only the terrorist element thats caused the mistrust & mistreatment of the Palastinians in the region. If the Palastinians had accepted that the Jews wanted -'part', not the whole- of their 'homeland' back, things would have been fine.

I'm not saying what Israel has done over the past 60 years is right, but it is understandable. Palastinians of today have more than doubled the amount of land they originally had. Todays Israel is about 30% smaller than what it was originally, so I don't see why Palastinians feel such strong ties to a land their ancestors stole, and had no ties to. (not to a point where they resort to blowing themselves -and others- up over it).

I agree that Israel has committed horrendous crimes against the Palastinian people (and vice versa I might add), but my main point is to remind people that Palastinians are fighting over a land that -only recently- they claimed, a land that wasn't theirs to start with, and in the name of a religion that they adopted from other Arabic tribes! Traditional Arabic Muslims are using the Palastinian cause for there own ends. They want to spread Islam across the world, and want a powerful, strong Islamic country on Europes doorstep. If the Palastinians were Christian, or Pegan, would Iran/Iraq/Syria/Pakistan feel so strongly about Jewish occupation of Israel?

The whole situation is bullshit from both 4 sides. The USA/Europe are using the Judaic cause for a foothold in the region, Arabs are using the Palastinian cause for an Islamic foothold in the region, Palastinians are killing people over a land that isn't theirs, and Jews are committing war crimes to keep the only bit of land they can call home.

Arabs have no historical ties with the Palastinians. It pisses me off that Arabic hate for the Jews is brought out by Islamic extremists, geared toward secret political objectives, and their peoples can't see that. A muslim suicide bomber is killing himself -and others- for an Islamic foothold on Europes doorstep, while he thinks it's for the cause of the Palastinians to regain their land.

[quote]Let's stick to the facts rather than the "if pigs could fly" scenario.

Israel is bombing the crap out of Lebanese CIVILIANS. This is sometimes known as terrorism (but not when the IDF does it, apparently).[/quote]

Guys, guys, what Israel is doing to the Lebonese people is horrid. Jews/Israelites have no historical ties to Lebenon or the area around it like they do further south. But it's a different fight to the Palastinian cause.