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I think the principles for war are right. The lies and way American way of doing it are a different matter.

Unlike most, I've no inclination to follow current fashion, and right now it's trendy to be anti-war. This trend is probably due to the fact that most Westerners take liberty for granted. We see the ragged clothes, pot-holed streets and brown skin, and can only see ourselves as the evil bully.

Being as objective and dispassionate about the current war as I can, I believe we're fighting a war against fascism; fascism with an Islamic face. These fascists see themselves morally, ethnically, and culturally superior; they are just as power hungry, dictatorial and suppressive upon their populace as the Euro-fascists of the past, and to top it off, they have apocalyptic weaponry within their grasp this time round. At least the old school fascists didn't have these weapons, with a mad, demented assumption that God is on their side.....and they treated their women and children better too.

As for politics and the Americans: Well, they've been caught lying before and few will believe much they say this time around. People take great care in absorbing the tiniest details about the pros and cons of this war, through the media who are no more unbiased and objective as the guy who sits under the dartboard at your local. As Orwell says: "The people that are passionately pro, or anti-war, are the people that never see battle. The people on the front lines are usually too cold, frightened, or hungry to care about politics." I sincerely think the public was lied to about WMD's and the like because they needed public support. People just wouldn't believe there are power hungry fascists wanting to take over the world, and with it our freedom, because these new fascists aren't white, skinheaded and heavily tattooed. They had to exaggerate a dictators weaponry and ambitions to get the voters on-side. Busying themselves with the details through their daily rag, or favourite 24 hour news channel, they fail to grasp the big picture, or the long term consequences. 'Things will always turn out ok in the end' is a stupid philosophy and always will be.

When has anybody gained, received, or maintained their liberty through doing nothing?

Just political point scoring ahead of the UN get together

[quote]Nicely put Sam but the Iranians haven't actually got the Bomb yet[/quote]

You forgot to emphasise the word 'yet'.

[quote]if they exploded one they would be on the receiving end of the nuclear deterrent of several countries including Israel.[/quote]

Would they care if they thought there were virgins waiting for them in heaven, and that God was on their side anyway?

[quote]I still don't see what the justification for invading Iraq was.[/quote]

I do. He was a fascist dictator that murdered and suppressed his own people. Milosovic was ousted for similar offences, so why not Saddam? Is it ok to be a genocidal dictator as long as you have brown skin? (Mugabe anyone?)

[quote]I just don't want to see a lot of people getting killed for nothing or so that somebody can make money out of it.[/quote]

Saddam killed them for nothing......well, opposing him, then. The people being killed now is mainly a civilian war which could have been avoided if the post war phase had been planned better. We've let the Iraqi people down in that respect, tis true. I heard somewhere that there are more policemen in the state of New York, than the number of soldiers in the whole of Iraq. No wonder it's chaos. As for making money......I completely agree in that it's immoral.

[quote]I also think that there is a reason for extreme Islamic hatred of Western culture.[/quote]

Yes, most definitely. Jealousy, envy, fear, ignorance, bigotry and delusion.

Please don't mention American foreign policy, or Israel because I think they're just excuses. Danish, German and Swedes around the Muslim world were massacred, as well as embassies being bombed/burnt due to a few cartoons, and to this day, no American or British newspaper dare publish these cartoons through fear. The Islamic world needs to accept liberty and freedom for all, but is so backward that it fears the very things we take for granted.

Whether it's the middle east, Israel, Kashmir, Thailand, Indonesia, or north Africa; be it Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists or atheists, wherever there is contact with Islam, there is friction, distrust, violence, bigotry, intolerance, and usually people being killed.

All westerners have no idea of what it's like to be oppressed, and to live in constant fear of the police, the government, and the local Imam -or neighbours grassing you up- so we do not think freedom is something worth fighting for anymore. We care more about how thin Victoria Beckham is getting, or the new gadget hitting the stores than millions of people with no hope, or voice. We're fat, lazy and take our freedom for granted.

Being anti-war may seem cool and lovable, but who was it that said: "Those who live by the sword, die by the sword, while all the others die of smelly diseases."?

[quote]Sam
i think your a bit off there with a few of your points. the leaders ie Iran dont actually preach the 100 virgin shit.[/quote]

They're not Muslim then? I never said they preached it, only believed it.

[quote]And thats a bit poor about saying treating women and children badly ...on what basis do you have to say that.[/quote]

Women being forced to cover up, and denied a proper education. Forced marriages, clitoral circumcision etc. (I'm not talking specifically of Iran btw)

[quote]Its the extremists....[/quote]

Indeed, but the moderates make it easy for extremists to operate. What makes you extremist? Your actions or your views? If you have no desire to bomb an airport lounge, but tolerate others that would, that does not make you much better than the bomber.

We all know how crazy Bush is, and we're free to express our feelings towards him, which is a damn site more than expressing your views on the previous Iraqi leader, the current Iranian/Saudi leaders etc....

Once women have equal rights and are not treated as baby factories, once teenagers can choose their own partners, once racism is banned from all mosques, once the violence stops, once people can criticise their leaders freely, then maybe Islam will move into the 20th century (note '20th', not '21st' - we don't want to move along too swiftly).

What's laughable is that these extremists can recruit so many western Muslims so easily to go bomb innocent people, but how many western Muslims will pick up a gun and go fight in Pakistan, or Saudi Arabia for women's rights, or freedom of speech? Answers on a postcard please......

Iran is trying to make itself the first Islamic Superpower. With Pakistan being slighty pre-occupied with their Indian neighbours and Indonesia being fairly stable they feel they can rule the region by threats and hints of nuclear weapons.

If Iran did attack Israel the repsonse would be merciless and I doubt the American Jewish lobby would stop Israel flattening most of Iran's cities and military bases.

America is really crapping itself as they know they cannot win in Iraq and Bush hasn't the balls to pull his troops out. He is terrified the Iranians will pile in and create a huge single Islamic nation on the doorstep of America's oil interests in Saudi, Kuwait and the Gulf States.

America's foreign policy always needs a big bad guy. Was Russia, then China, now Iran, 10 years down the line it could be Brazil or knowing how stupid American military analysts can be, the Faroes.....

Vietnam Part Two has arrived.