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Just watched the programme about the events around the formation of the coalition.

There are some, namely Sam Slater, who argued extensively on this forum, that the reasons why a Lib Lab coalition didnt happen was because the Labour party bottled it and forced the Lib Dems into forming a coalition with the Tories.

It was argued that Labour made an offer on av without a referendum which they then took back.

These arguments were blown completely and utterly out of the water in this documentary, based purely on the comments made by Nick Clegg and Vince Cable, themselves.

The documentary made the following points clear.

First Nick Clegg said the concept of a pact with Labour was very difficult because "Labour had lost the election". Secondly Vince Cable spoke to Brown on the telephone and told Brown that the "numbers didn't add up " for a Lib Lab pact. Both Clegg and Cable stated that they had told Brown that his continuing in office was a stumbling block to any agreement. As a result of that Brown sacrificed himself to try to keep the chance of a pact alive and announced that he would be stepping down and that there would be a leadership election in the Labour party.

Furthermore, Nick Clegg admitted that Labour had never formally offered AV without a referendum even though he had told Cameron that in order to get Cameron to put forward AV with a referendum. Now you could argue that this is a standard, bargaining technique but I doubt if it will do much to improve the chances of backbench Tory MPs toeing the party line and voting for AV when they realise they have been shafted.

And finally, Clegg came clean that he demanded from the Labour party that the cuts should start immediately, something that the Lib Dems had argued vehemently against throughout the election and here was Clegg arguing for it, 3 days after the election. Probably the most crucial issue of the entire campaign. And then Clegg explained that he had changed his views before the election. One of Clegg's main problems is that he is an utterly hopeless liar. When defending the budget produced by Osborne and Alexander , Clegg explained that he had changed his views about the timing of the cuts as a result of a phone call with Mervyn King AFTER the election. Alas and alack, King is quoted in the Guardian today as saying that there was nothing in the phone call he had with Clegg which he hadnt said in press conferences over a period of weeks.

So did the Labour party bottle it, so that the Lib Dems had no alternative but to join with the Tories?

Complete and utter bullshit!

Cheers
D

Watched Clegg on PMQ.s ,still believing his own hype,i think he is so deluded he thinks everyone loves the lib dems,how wrong could he be.

It was an interesting programme. Mandeson and Brown descending into the basement below number 10, then a custodian opening a large door and they headed down some steep stairs and walked along a secret tunnel to Parliament to meet Clegg - all so the press wouldn't know they were going off somewhere - shows how secret some of those meetings were. I think that was slightly mis-reported on this programme though. The press said a couple of weeks ago that they re-surfaced at the MOD and then went by car to Parliament.

I was hoping we wouldnt hear from Brown ever again but in the last week he turned up in Uganda (or somewhere) and is now doing his 'world statesman' bit.

David Johnson wrote:

> Both Clegg and Cable stated that they had told Brown that his
> continuing in office was a stumbling block to any agreement.
> As a result of that Brown sacrificed himself to try to keep the
> chance of a pact alive and announced that he would be stepping
> down and that there would be a leadership election in the
> Labour party.

Sounds gallant, but even before the election you got the impression Brown was itching to leave, or had at least realised that leaving office, under whatever circumstances, was somehow inevitable. Still, a dignified exit.

As for Clegg, Brown's from the business sector, isn't he? He probably knew a shameless opportunist when he saw one.

"Sounds gallant, but even before the election you got the impression Brown was itching to leave"

Maybe you did, but I suspect very few got that impression and would agree with you. He had a number of coup attempts or prospective coup attempts against him. None of them successful. Neither these nor very low poll ratings convinced him to go before the election.

Given that every politician and political commentator that I have seen interviewed, stated that Brown had an overpowering desire to become Prime Minister and a very strong sense of service, I find absolutely no support for your view that he was "itching to leave" so soon after becoming Prime Minister. Nor does the documentary support in any way your view. Brown made a number of telephone calls to Lib Dem contacts arguing that the Lib Dems should be talking to/doing a deal with the Labour party and not the Tories. The impression given was that he was very keen to stay in power, albeit as part of a coalition, if need be.

"As for Clegg, Brown's from the business sector, isn't he?"

No he isn't.

Cheers
D

Oh.....so NOW you believe everything Cleggie says? I thought he was someone who couldn't be trusted.

"Oh.....so NOW you believe everything Cleggie says? I thought he was someone who couldn't be trusted."

Well I suppose you could argue that he lied in the documentary in order to show:

1. The Lib Dems were not forced into a coalition with the Tories, but chose them because they were a better bet for power, given that Labour had lost the election.
2. He hadn't been offered anything more on AV from the Tory party than the Labour party had committed to.
3. He took a completely different view prior to the election on when 6 billion of cuts should happen even though at the time he and his party were arguing the opposite.

Or alternatively you could take the view that he knew that he had been found out, particularly over his lie that he only changed his view on the timing of the cuts when he had a telephone call from Mervyn King after the election and so he decided to come clean.

Which do you think is likelier? To quote your good self at the time of the coalition discussions, talking about the Lib Dem Con talks

"That's the way I see it, anyway, so all the articles in the papers about how well the talks are doing I take with a pinch of salt - especially if they're coming from the Lib Dems or Clegg himself. Of course, I could be wrong, and if I am I cannot fathom Clegg's tactics at all and must assume he's either daft, or a closet Tory".

I know and you know what I believe.

Cheers
D