Some of you I hope will remember that last year I was one of the speakers at a debate at University College, Dublin. Well, word seems to have got around and another Irish university has asked me to be a speaker at one of their debates in October. I will be supporting the motion 'Pornography is a victimless phenomenon' and before I write my speech I'd very much welcome any ideas/views/opinions forum participants may have. Either post them here or, if you're shy (?), please feel free to e-mail me.
Thanks in advance,
Wendy XXX
Debate
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Bill Malone
Re: Debate
Wendy:
My (small) 2 cents: it's both. Sometimes everyone involved is willing, the crew, the performers, the audience, no-one is expolited at all. Other times it can/could be used as an emotional blackmailing tool to make someone desperate for money/fame/attention do something they're not ultimately comfortable with and may regret, But this is in the minority. It's like saying prostitution, or bungy jumping, or shark fishing is victimless. It usually is but not if the people involved don't want to do it!
Obvious really, but I should imagine you'll have a hell of a time convincing some people who've already made their minds up.
Hope it goes well.
Bill
My (small) 2 cents: it's both. Sometimes everyone involved is willing, the crew, the performers, the audience, no-one is expolited at all. Other times it can/could be used as an emotional blackmailing tool to make someone desperate for money/fame/attention do something they're not ultimately comfortable with and may regret, But this is in the minority. It's like saying prostitution, or bungy jumping, or shark fishing is victimless. It usually is but not if the people involved don't want to do it!
Obvious really, but I should imagine you'll have a hell of a time convincing some people who've already made their minds up.
Hope it goes well.
Bill
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Steve
Re: Debate
i think ur in for a tough time Wendy.There were similar posts in the past which got good answers.There's some here who are educated u know.Good luck .......I expect better answers than this
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JonnyQ
Re: Debate
Good luck to you. Here are some things to be on guard for.
Here (in US), "discussions" about pornography almost always degenerate into the off-topic areas of child pornography and pedophilia. Then the pro-porn side is feverishly spending energy to keep the anti-porn side on topic, and nothing of substance gets discussed. Sure it is a red herring, but it remains quite effective regardless of how often it is recycled.
Another line of reasoning the anti-porn troops favor is:
Porn objectifies women. Therefore consumers of porn learn/de-evolve to objectify women in real life. Therefore real life women (girlfriends & wives of porn consumers) are victimized by porn.
Here (in US), "discussions" about pornography almost always degenerate into the off-topic areas of child pornography and pedophilia. Then the pro-porn side is feverishly spending energy to keep the anti-porn side on topic, and nothing of substance gets discussed. Sure it is a red herring, but it remains quite effective regardless of how often it is recycled.
Another line of reasoning the anti-porn troops favor is:
Porn objectifies women. Therefore consumers of porn learn/de-evolve to objectify women in real life. Therefore real life women (girlfriends & wives of porn consumers) are victimized by porn.
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johnEuk
Re: Debate
Good luck. The tide is swinging, but Jeez it's slow!
Anything adult and "exciting" distresses the conservative majority, and the truth is that you & I won't change that. All we can do is reduce their Fear Of The Unknown by discussing porn honestly and openly.
Public interest in porn is huge and growing - look at the internet figures - but there is still a public perception that it's "naughty", time-wasting, and certainly isn't something that *I* would do!
"Pornography" is a word invented by the Victorians, as there was no public knowledge of material intended to be sexually explicit and arousing before the excavation of Pompei in the 19th century. Well, that's not strictly true - there was tons of it before the dying Roman empire desperately adopted Christianity in the 5th century, and the moral curtain came down for 1500 years. (My hobby-horse. Sorry)
If you want to swat-up on the history of porn there is an excellent book by Isabel Tang of the channel 4 series "Pornography - The Secret History Of Civilization" - Channel 4 Books - ISBN 07522 17925. It's a great read in any case.
Anything adult and "exciting" distresses the conservative majority, and the truth is that you & I won't change that. All we can do is reduce their Fear Of The Unknown by discussing porn honestly and openly.
Public interest in porn is huge and growing - look at the internet figures - but there is still a public perception that it's "naughty", time-wasting, and certainly isn't something that *I* would do!
"Pornography" is a word invented by the Victorians, as there was no public knowledge of material intended to be sexually explicit and arousing before the excavation of Pompei in the 19th century. Well, that's not strictly true - there was tons of it before the dying Roman empire desperately adopted Christianity in the 5th century, and the moral curtain came down for 1500 years. (My hobby-horse. Sorry)
If you want to swat-up on the history of porn there is an excellent book by Isabel Tang of the channel 4 series "Pornography - The Secret History Of Civilization" - Channel 4 Books - ISBN 07522 17925. It's a great read in any case.
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joe king
Re: Debate
'Pornography is a victimless phenomenon'
victim // n.
1 a person injured or killed as a result of an event or circumstance (a road victim; the victims of war).
2 a person or thing harmed or destroyed in pursuit of an object or in gratification of a passion etc. (the victim of their ruthless ambition).
3 a prey; a dupe (fell victim to a confidence trick).
4 a living creature sacrificed to a deity or in a religious rite.
[Latin victima]
pornography // n.
1 the explicit description or exhibition of sexual activity in literature, films, etc., intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic or emotional feelings.
2 literature etc. characterized by this.
pornographer n.
pornographic // adj.
pornographically // adv.
[Greek pornographos ?writing of harlots?, from porne ?prostitute? + grapho ?write?]
exploit n. & v.
n. // a bold or daring feat.
v.tr. /, /
1 make use of (a resource etc.); derive benefit from.
2 usu. derog. utilize or take advantage of (esp. a person) for one's own ends.
exploitable /, / adj.
exploitation // n.
exploitative /, / adj.
exploiter n.
exploitive /, / adj.
[Middle English from Old French esploit, exploiter, ultimately from Latin explicare: see explicate]
John Holmes, Linda Lovelace, Bodil Joensen
John Holmes died of A.I.Ds related illnesses. Some bio's say he died of AIDS, but like saying ******* committed suicide, she more accurately overdosed. John Holmes was a victim of? A homosexual encounter or a diseased prostitute, or his love of dirty sex?
Linda Lovelace, her version of events (after she became religious) was that she was forced to act in porn(at gun point), if you had made it with a dog would you deny it as well? Maybe you aren't Chessy Moore (www.adultmovieshop.com).
Bodil Joensen, (in)famous for a convoluted series of bestiality movies. Was she ruthlessly exploited by the Color Climax Corporation? See book 'Fleshpot' ed by Jack Stevenson for more.
In a Capitalist consumer society everyone is a victim. Sellers charge high prices for goods bought at breakeven from the suppliers. Consumers are ripped off left, right and center, with false promises of more 'hardcore , explicit - you ain't seen nothing like this before' marketing.
victim // n.
1 a person injured or killed as a result of an event or circumstance (a road victim; the victims of war).
2 a person or thing harmed or destroyed in pursuit of an object or in gratification of a passion etc. (the victim of their ruthless ambition).
3 a prey; a dupe (fell victim to a confidence trick).
4 a living creature sacrificed to a deity or in a religious rite.
[Latin victima]
pornography // n.
1 the explicit description or exhibition of sexual activity in literature, films, etc., intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic or emotional feelings.
2 literature etc. characterized by this.
pornographer n.
pornographic // adj.
pornographically // adv.
[Greek pornographos ?writing of harlots?, from porne ?prostitute? + grapho ?write?]
exploit n. & v.
n. // a bold or daring feat.
v.tr. /, /
1 make use of (a resource etc.); derive benefit from.
2 usu. derog. utilize or take advantage of (esp. a person) for one's own ends.
exploitable /, / adj.
exploitation // n.
exploitative /, / adj.
exploiter n.
exploitive /, / adj.
[Middle English from Old French esploit, exploiter, ultimately from Latin explicare: see explicate]
John Holmes, Linda Lovelace, Bodil Joensen
John Holmes died of A.I.Ds related illnesses. Some bio's say he died of AIDS, but like saying ******* committed suicide, she more accurately overdosed. John Holmes was a victim of? A homosexual encounter or a diseased prostitute, or his love of dirty sex?
Linda Lovelace, her version of events (after she became religious) was that she was forced to act in porn(at gun point), if you had made it with a dog would you deny it as well? Maybe you aren't Chessy Moore (www.adultmovieshop.com).
Bodil Joensen, (in)famous for a convoluted series of bestiality movies. Was she ruthlessly exploited by the Color Climax Corporation? See book 'Fleshpot' ed by Jack Stevenson for more.
In a Capitalist consumer society everyone is a victim. Sellers charge high prices for goods bought at breakeven from the suppliers. Consumers are ripped off left, right and center, with false promises of more 'hardcore , explicit - you ain't seen nothing like this before' marketing.
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TM Video
Re: Debate
I went with Wendy to the last debate and she did wonders for promoting Porn. Mainly because she was not what they expected (air-head bimbo without intellegence) and she spoke with both purpose and wit on the subject. The vote would have gone her way had there not been other speakers. The reason? More than half the crowd left after Wendy spoke!! 
And Wendy... since I can't make it this year you take care of my assistant will you!! You and she can raise some hell but try not to get arrested, hehehe!!!
And Wendy... since I can't make it this year you take care of my assistant will you!! You and she can raise some hell but try not to get arrested, hehehe!!!
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Matt
Are you a victim?
Great topic, and fantastic that you're making the speach. I'd be interested in reading it if you could email me a copy when you're done. My thesis for my philosophy degree will be (hopefully) 'The Philosophy of Pornography', so I'm curious about this area.
God help us all when we have to refer to dictionary definitions to find out what we mean! Having said that, I'm inclined to agree with Joe. We're all victims in a sense, capitalism makes us so.
However, I get the impression that the economic system that the porn trade is a part of is not your primary interest as much as the people involved in the business are, from the performers to the consumers.
There are two groups I instinctively feel are worth mentioning when it comes to 'Porn - A Victimless Phenomenan?' The first are the performers / producers / directors etc. While it is true that some people within the industry are no doubt exploited, who isn't? We all prostitute ourselves to the system, whether we choose to take onboard 9-5 office jobs and become enslaved to the work regeime or whatever we do. At least those who work in Porn are more likely to see through the mythological joke our society is based on ("If everyone says it/thinks it/does it then it must be right"). Exploitation is a fundamental part of a capitalist society - without it, capitalism wouldn't work. Pornography, in this way, doesn't exploit a great deal more then other industrys - it just follows the trend.
The second group are the consumers. If there are any 'victims of pornography', it is us. The purchasers of over-priced, badly made tosh featuring naked women doing stuff. How many of us have looked back over the years and considered how much money we could have had if we hadn't spent so much on pornography? Or maybe it's just me. So am I a victim of pornography? Kind of. Or at least I was when I was paying for it (smug grin) - it was my choice, but in supplying a quick fix solution to a basic human animalistic desire, the porn trade have made victims of all of us.
In a way.
Matt.
-who reserves the right to be wrong-
God help us all when we have to refer to dictionary definitions to find out what we mean! Having said that, I'm inclined to agree with Joe. We're all victims in a sense, capitalism makes us so.
However, I get the impression that the economic system that the porn trade is a part of is not your primary interest as much as the people involved in the business are, from the performers to the consumers.
There are two groups I instinctively feel are worth mentioning when it comes to 'Porn - A Victimless Phenomenan?' The first are the performers / producers / directors etc. While it is true that some people within the industry are no doubt exploited, who isn't? We all prostitute ourselves to the system, whether we choose to take onboard 9-5 office jobs and become enslaved to the work regeime or whatever we do. At least those who work in Porn are more likely to see through the mythological joke our society is based on ("If everyone says it/thinks it/does it then it must be right"). Exploitation is a fundamental part of a capitalist society - without it, capitalism wouldn't work. Pornography, in this way, doesn't exploit a great deal more then other industrys - it just follows the trend.
The second group are the consumers. If there are any 'victims of pornography', it is us. The purchasers of over-priced, badly made tosh featuring naked women doing stuff. How many of us have looked back over the years and considered how much money we could have had if we hadn't spent so much on pornography? Or maybe it's just me. So am I a victim of pornography? Kind of. Or at least I was when I was paying for it (smug grin) - it was my choice, but in supplying a quick fix solution to a basic human animalistic desire, the porn trade have made victims of all of us.
In a way.
Matt.
-who reserves the right to be wrong-
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Barrie
Re: Debate
Dear Wendy
Yes i would say that the victims/exploited people, due to pornography or as i have said to you b4 adults enjoying i hope themselves as you do in a non violent or to their particular limits way are the consumers. Just look at the cost of waging war and the after affects such as human suffering and deprivation, thats hardly a "victimless phenomenon". I guess what im really saying is having lived through the sixty's and the Vietnam war period is "Make love not war" and the world would be hopefully a more peaceful and harmonious place. I know it may not exactly be what the motion is suggesting but surely the legalisation of both porn and prostitution as in i believe most enlightened European Community countries not stiffled by victoria attitudes, would instantly bring in mainstream producers and other regulated agencies to clean up and make a more open and accountable adult industry/personal services market thus removing for the most part the possibility of exploitation and the pressure to do something the actor/escort was forced to do to make what they saw as a living to bring up children or provide for other family members needs undercover and without safeguards. As to what Mike said about people leaving the debating hall after you spoke did they just go to see you and not to listen to what words of undoubted wisdom that you had put forward.
Much admiration for your stance and attitude to the subject and long may you continue.
Barrie
Yes i would say that the victims/exploited people, due to pornography or as i have said to you b4 adults enjoying i hope themselves as you do in a non violent or to their particular limits way are the consumers. Just look at the cost of waging war and the after affects such as human suffering and deprivation, thats hardly a "victimless phenomenon". I guess what im really saying is having lived through the sixty's and the Vietnam war period is "Make love not war" and the world would be hopefully a more peaceful and harmonious place. I know it may not exactly be what the motion is suggesting but surely the legalisation of both porn and prostitution as in i believe most enlightened European Community countries not stiffled by victoria attitudes, would instantly bring in mainstream producers and other regulated agencies to clean up and make a more open and accountable adult industry/personal services market thus removing for the most part the possibility of exploitation and the pressure to do something the actor/escort was forced to do to make what they saw as a living to bring up children or provide for other family members needs undercover and without safeguards. As to what Mike said about people leaving the debating hall after you spoke did they just go to see you and not to listen to what words of undoubted wisdom that you had put forward.
Much admiration for your stance and attitude to the subject and long may you continue.
Barrie
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The Dude
Re: Debate
"Victims" bollocks! I've been in the industry 10 years and I've never yet come across one of these fabled "victims" you hear about in poncy, lower (public sector) middle class, newspapers and on Radio 4. All the girls and producers I've met do it 'cause they find it the most agreeable (for them) way of making a living. Well, think about it. If they weren't doing porno - intrinsically pleasurable, lucrative, glamourous and easy hours - they would be hairdressers, or checkout girls at Sainsburys. Sat there for 8 hours running fucking pot noodles across a barcode scanner, with the tiresome customers doing their heads in. Which line of work would you rather be in?
As for Matt's obvious bourgouis middle class distaste of capitalism: I praise the lord for capitalism. It's the one thing that can set the down trodden proletariat free - including porno girls. No one is barred from playing the game and a winning hand will make you as free as anyone can be in a western society. Yes, you may play the game and lose (it's a game of skill after all) But the mere fact that you may succeed at some point in the future gives you hope and purpose.
As for Matt's obvious bourgouis middle class distaste of capitalism: I praise the lord for capitalism. It's the one thing that can set the down trodden proletariat free - including porno girls. No one is barred from playing the game and a winning hand will make you as free as anyone can be in a western society. Yes, you may play the game and lose (it's a game of skill after all) But the mere fact that you may succeed at some point in the future gives you hope and purpose.