'Suicide Bomber' shooting - the verdict

[Robches]

>So.........who do you have confidence in? (just out of curiosity).

I don't have confidence in anyone who's a corrupt liar, who expects me to trust him because he's a politician.

Nor do I trust police officers who shoot dead an innocent man, and then tell lies about him and alter logs to cover their arses. Call me cynical, but I really don't want to give bent liars like that the power of life and death over anyone. You trust them, I don't.

[c.j.jaxxon]

Ok don't get Sam started!

[Sam Slater]

[quote]In this case the armed officers did not "suspect" Menezes, who was not behaving suspiciously. The only reason they had to kill him without warning was if they had the order from their Gold Commander. The problem is that she denies she issued that order. Meanwhile the surveillance log has been altered, but the IPCC say they cannot find out who did it.

This looks like a complete cover up, and I doubt that a prosecution over health and safety will get to the bottom of it. But for the sake of justice we really need to, otherwise the police will think they can operate with impunity. Perhaps they already do.[/quote]

A cover up looks likely. I'm not against prosecuting someone found guilty of it either. The point you're missing though is that I just want people to lay off the officers on the ground. The one's who're putting their lives at risk for us all deserve a little more respect, than the officers sat behind their desks. I'm not saying the officers in the line of fire can go shooting everyone 'willy nilly' and that they shouldn't be immune to an investigation; but my guess is that they didn't wake up that morning hoping to shoot someone seven times in the head. They must have had a good reason -or suspicion- to fire. It's not something we're used to seeing in the UK and these incidents are isolated at best. It was a 'fuck up' and accidental, but people seem to assume the officers killed the guy 'for a laugh': I think thats bollox.

I trust the police over suicide bombers. I trust Tony Blair over Saddam Hussain. I'm not blind to the fact Tony Blair has lied & I'm not a 'right wing hard liner'. I'm a pretty well balanced individual who would rather trust our police force over anyone elses. It doesn't mean they're right everytime -no one is-, but my freedoms aren't breeched. There's nothing I cannot do now, that I could have done before 9/11. I'm also seeing things from a nuetral point of view -living in the UK, but in the middle of a massive 90% muslim community- where I saw muslims with their sons on their shoulders, cheering when the terrorist attacks were on the news. The same people I wen't to school with, and played football & cricket with throughout the long summers of my youth. So I know a little about the Koran & the muslim faith. I know a lot more about the Islamic culture & way of life: but I'm English and 'white'. I felt betrayed when my muslim friends -who've made a good living in my counrty- cheers when they saw British people killed in London.

We're living in one of the 'most free' nations on the globe, at one of the most free times since civilisation began, yet people are paranoid about our freedoms being breeched. Since I'm not 'left wing hippy' I still feel as free as I was 10 years ago. I just feel more worried about my girfriend when she's travelling on the tube.

Some people just see what they want to see, and common sense goes out the window. If shooting suspects dead is what we need to do, well..........thats the way it is. Sometimes you have to take a step back, to go forward.......

[Sam Slater]

[quote]>So.........who do you have confidence in? (just out of curiosity).

I don't have confidence in anyone who's a corrupt liar, who expects me to trust him because he's a politician.

Nor do I trust police officers who shoot dead an innocent man, and then tell lies about him and alter logs to cover their arses. Call me cynical, but I really don't want to give bent liars like that the power of life and death over anyone. You trust them, I don't.[/quote]

You don't like politicians yet post like one.....!laugh! You never answered my question!

I asked you who you trusted not who you didn't........

[Sam Slater]

I'm only a liddle puddy tat really! !laugh!

[c.j.jaxxon]

Man we done got you started!

[Robches]

I don't automatically trust anyone, it has to be earned, not demanded as of right.

If we trusted the police, we would not need an IPCC. But we don't, so we do.

You have accepted there was a cover-up in this case, but seem put out that I don't trust the police. That does not make a lot of sense to me.

Also, I don't think anyone anywhere has ever claimed the police shot Menzes for a laugh. That's a straw man argument. But you yourself have accepted it was a cock-up, followed by a cover-up, ie a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. If that does not warrant criminal charges, what does?

Once again, the police have got away with murder, and the Met will face joke charges based on their failure to observe health and safety regulations. What a complete and utter pile of shit.

[Sam Slater]

[quote]I don't automatically trust anyone, it has to be earned, not demanded as of right.[/quote]

You still haven't answered my question: 'do you trust anyone?' You'd make a good politician! I'll assume you don't trust anyone then....... explains a lot.

[quote]You have accepted there was a cover-up in this case, but seem put out that I don't trust the police. That does not make a lot of sense to me.[/quote]

It makes lots of sense when you look at the alternatives: Trusting terrorists. Anyway, if you read up on my previous threads, I stated that; 'I'd trust the police over terrorism.' I never said I trusted the police 'whole heartedly', or 100%. Every team/force/organisation has a few bad apples.

[quote]Also, I don't think anyone anywhere has ever claimed the police shot Menzes for a laugh. That's a straw man argument. But you yourself have accepted it was a cock-up, followed by a cover-up, ie a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. If that does not warrant criminal charges, what does?[/quote]

No they nevar said 'they shot Menzes for a laugh.' outright, but they kinda insinuated it. Look up through previous posts and you'll find quotes like: 'he wasn't a suspect.' and, 'i bet they could even see his hands were free when they shot him.'

What do you assume they meant from those quotes?

[quote]Once again, the police have got away with murder, and the Met will face joke charges based on their failure to observe health and safety regulations. What a complete and utter pile of shit.[/quote]

I'm all for charging people with the 'cover up', just not the officers who shot the guy. I feel that though the guy turned out to be innocent, they didn't know that at the time. If they were punished then other officers in the future may hesitate in simular circumstances. That could lead to hundreds of deaths, with terrorists across the world being encouraged by their fellow terrorists successes.

I see that, that sort of encouragement is good for their moral, and bad for ours. It should be them squabbling amoungst themselves, not us. The police in their nice offices should answer for the 'fuck up' in intelligence, but the guys on the ground need to be given the benefit of the doubt, along with our encouragement.

Like someone else said futher up the thread: 'It's easy to point the finger behind a computer screen, on a comfy chair with a nice cup of tea.'

[Robches]

>I'm all for charging people with the 'cover up', just not the officers who shot the guy.

Well, for the hundredth and last time, if the armed police got the Kratos code from their Gold Commander, they are in the clear. They had to assume the suspect was a suicide bomber, to be shot dead without warning. In that case, the Gold Commander has to explain why she issued that code word.

If they did not get the code word (and she says she did not issue it), then why did they kill a man who was a suspect, nothing more, who was not acting at all suspiciously?

As far as can be known, Cmdr Dick issued an order to "stop" the suspect entering Stockwell Station. By the time the armed police got that order, Menezes was already in the station. Hence the sight of men jumping over ticket barriers - it was the police, not Menezes as you seemed to think.

It looks as if the armed officers panicked when ordered to stop the suspect doing something he had already done. They seem to have interpreted this as authorisation to kill him, which, assuming Cmdr Dick is not lying, they did not have.

If that's what happened, the armed police involved need to be charged with manslaughter. They killed an innocent man without just cause or proper authority. But if Cmdr Dick is lying, and she did give the code word, she has to explain how she reached her decision. That can only have come from the surveillance op, where, as the IPCC found, the logs had been changed by persons unknown.

I can't be bothered arguing about this any more, as it is clear that you would rather not question the police, even when they have killed an innocent man. No-one is claiming they acted with malice, but they do seem to have been incompetent, and then there seems to have been a conspiracy after the fact to hide this series of mistakes.

The consequence of not having any sort of trial to hold people to account for their actions, is that procedures stay in place, and the same thing could happen again. Police "marksmen" have killed several innocent people in recent years, and because they know they are never held to account, there is no reason to suppose this will change.

[Sam Slater]

[quote]Well, for the hundredth and last time, if the armed police got the Kratos code from their Gold Commander, they are in the clear. They had to assume the suspect was a suicide bomber, to be shot dead without warning. In that case, the Gold Commander has to explain why she issued that code word.[/quote]

Code words my arse! I know for a fact that code words only work in a well planned situation. Since he'd entered the station before they got to him then the officers on the ground have to use their own judgement & instincts. TERRORISTS DO NOT WAIT FOR CODE WORDS BEFORE DETONATIONF BOMBS. They already have the advantage of suprise, the 'code word' is just a bit of bullshit they've fed the media to keep paranoid hippies, happy. Code words are bullshit in any life or death situation, where tenths of a second make the difference. Ask anyone who's had military training. I assure you that code words from a commander 20 miles away in an office are only used where coordination is essential, and not 'off the cuff' judgements to an ever changing enviroment & circumstances. You're only seeing what you want to see. You need to 'see' the situation in your mind and take on the consequences in the real world, where lives are in danger. Think practical, instaed of making your judgements from reports written in ink on pieces of paper. We cannot have 'weak knee'd, spineless, politically correct officers dealing with determined, fanatical terrorists face to face. The 'mad man' wins everytime.

If the guy was a suspected burglar, or robber I'd be outraged in his death. I'd want justice done, and people charged. We were dealing with a suspected terrorist though. It's common sense that the stakes are higher and a different approach is needed. I'm willing to accept different approaches to different circumstances. You cannot catch a bull with a worm on a hook because it's not a fish. (a good analogy me thinks!)

Stop being blinded by your tunnel vision. Just because you don't trust the police, you're only seeing their faults instead of viewing everything 'ouside the box' and weighing up all the risks from all quarters. If the guy was a terrorist but they didn't get the code word, would you still be outraged? You should be if thats the basis of your arguement.

I'm of the assumption that a lot of people 'wanted' the police to be wrong. They 'wanted' the police to fuck up and pay for it. Maybe police officers being charged & sacked for doing a difficult job would give some people a morbid satisfaction? Who knows?

Remember that paranoia is bad for your health. It's been found to lower your immune sytem. When prolonged paranoia occurs, it can lead to anxiety and even depression. Certain drugs can worsen the problem. Don't let your distrust of everyone eat you up. (this advice is free).