Muslim women + veils

[FridaySe]

Just a few of my thoughts on this one.

Wearing a veil is not Muslim law but a tradition. Traditions only last as long as they are convenient, irrespective of where you are and right now things like wearing a veil are being used as rallying cries for hard line Muslim clerics and fundamentalists.

A perfect example of a traditions that's viewed as being no longer convenient is Tartan. Traditionally you could only wear your Clans tartan or the Royal Stewart, but how many people give a shit about that now?

And please if someone is going to bring up the attempt to stop all Scots wearing Tartan..... don't. That was a different situtation to the current one and is only being used as an example of a tradition that is now only followed by a few.



As for the general attitude of male Muslims.
I've known and worked alongside quite a few and everyone has had a disrespectful attitude to women.
I'm not saying that all Muslim men are like this, just the ones I have met.
I have to admit I do have a serious problem with anyone who wears what the hell he wants and generally does anything he wants, but insists someone else lives by a strict set of rules and regulations that by their very nature interfere with functioning in a non secular society.



On the subject of Muslim religion in general.
I think the Muslim religion is currently in a similar mindset as the Chrisitian religion was in the dark ages when all non Christians were viewed as being evil and in need of either conversion or death.
Christianity got through it, even if they did wipe out entire races in the process and cut a bloody swath across the world.
I'm sure that in time Muslims will also come to accept non Muslims.
I acknowledge the fact that we can't afford to sit back and let Muslim fundamentalism take it's course and eventually run out of steam, especially with the current capacity for 1 man to cause a large amount of destruction.

[c.j.jaxxon]

I agree even though I don't live in the UK and just the same could be said about the US.

[Sam Slater]

From wikipedia:

[quote]Everyday dress (hijab)

Quran calls this mode of dressing "modest". Muslims, male and female, are expected to dress without exposure of intimate body parts as expressed in the Qur'an:

* "Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do." [24:30]
* "And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms ... " [24:31]
* "O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them. That will be better, so that they may be recognized and not annoyed. Allah (SWT) is ever Forgiving, Merciful." [33:59]

However, there are many different interpretations of what "modesty" requires. See the article on hijab for an extended discussion of modest dress.[/quote]

Ok, so they have to cover there bosom & modesty, but only to a point where they're allowed to show 'what would ordinarily appear'. Which I'm interpreting as hands & face. Also onlt to a point where they can be 'recognised' and not annoyed. Again, I'm guessing that to be recognisable, you need to show your face, but no more as to be showing anything a passer by may find erotic, like a thigh, or breast. So the Qur'an allows Muslim women to show their face, thus it's not the religion but a personal choice. This must be true as more Muslim girls do show their face than Muslim girls who do not. Glad we have that sorted.

I go on........

[quote]In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

066.001
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Why bannest thou that which Allah hath made lawful for thee, seeking to please thy wives? And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [/quote]

Ok, so here we have 3 interpreters of the Qur'an telling Muslims to stop banning themselves of things Allah has permitted them to do! Since the Qur'an says Muslim women should only cover their modesty & bosoms, but are required to dress so they are recognised, then it's obvious that the full Burqa is only a custom, or tradition and 'not' an Islamic requirement.

So Banks and schools 'are' allowing religious freedom, even if they ban the Burqa.

[Mysteryman]

I totally differ from you about local variations and culture in the UK.. Over the last 40 years I have lived in the North West of England and the South East - there are great similarities and vast differences.

I have worked all over the UK and have employed staff from, and in every corner of, the country. There are very real regional differences.

How on earth you can say the UK and European countries don't have vastly different cultures beats me. There are some similarities but try living in another country. Also, I've done business all the way to Government level in 18 European countries since 1990 (earlier in many cases - but let's stick to relatively modern times).

The business culture is vastly different in our nearest ethnic neighbour - Germany. Italy is a world away and when you deal with some of the old Warsaw Pact countries you have to get into a completely different mind set.

The number of radical people in a country is immaterial. It is the influence they have and the potential for trouble making that is important. The growth in the numbers of young women wearing the veil is indicative of a trend towards a more hard line interpretation of an already distinctly strict religion which believes in achieving predominance throughout the world.

How much of that influence is healthy in what is supposed to be a free, democratic society?

Communism used to be seen as a threat. Compared to the Muslim faith, which has real believers instead of enslaved people, Communism was a pussy cat.

[c.j.jaxxon]

Ya just HAD to go to great lenghts to win your debate! LOL! If this is the case then why are we debating it and why is it a custom and still, why should we make them remove there burkas? It only ANNOYS the "dominate culture".

[Sam Slater]

[quote]why should we make them remove there burkas? It only ANNOYS the "dominate culture".[/quote]

I don't want them to remove their Burqas, at least not while doing mundane things like shopping, taking a walk etc etc. I just want them to respect certain customs when it's required of them, like it's required of everyone else.

To ignore British culture & tradition while living there is rude and impolite. In the UK I can cross the road at any point perfectly legally as long as I don't put other people in danger, while when I'm in LA I'm forced to use the crossings provided by law, and I do because I'm in California. I respect that states laws. I do this without even thinking about it because it's only reasonable and polite. I wouldn't start demanding that I cross a road wherever I please just because in the UK I'm allowed to.

You don't go to live in your friends apartment and demand what channel to turn the TV onto, or what colour his walls should be painted, correct?

[Sam Slater]

Regardless of how watered down, or trashy you think British culture has become, it doesn't make Islamic culture more important and influential. In fact I'd guess that the more we give in to Islamic (and other religious) demands, the more watered down British culture will become.

The local post office & bus company have actually been in heated discussions with the local Somali community (well, last year anyway) recently. Can you guess why?................Go on, have a guess...........

.......Ok I'll tell you............"Queueing!" (is that the right spelling?)

People have been complaining that Somali women have been pushing in the queue, and get quite angry when people complain. They don't feel the need to queue.

What ever do we do now? It's a free country after all, and queueing isn't exactly 'law', is it? Do we now abolish queueing, to keep Somali's happy?

(for our American friend, C.J: 'Queueing' is 'standing in line'.)

[c.j.jaxxon]

I know what "qeueing" is thanks to the computer. (laughs) The analogy of the Somalian women who are impatiant about standing in line is a valid one since in most other countries and continents thats what we do and they ought to realize it's universal. It's the law in LA not "jay walk" while in Chicago the pedestrian has the right of way or in other words if you hit one you'll get a ticket. I just don't see why we need to get mad over some things that shouldn't bug us i.e. a man who wears dreadlocks to the office, a muslim women who decides she'd rather cover her face, (not a growing trend I might add) etc. I read a post that a man kissed his girl in public in front of somebody's house and the man came at the couple armed with a knife. It's a bit extreme for him to do that and I'm sure the couple didn't know what the hubbub was about and wouldn't have known who's house they were standing in front of anyway. Maybe the guy with the knife should've checked himself before confronting the couple like that. But again I say, just because some customs of other cultures bug you, if it don't affect your life, don't bother.