I would just like to congratulate all the posters on this weighty subject. For once there hasn't been any bitching, back-biting, stabbing, etc.
This discussion has been perceptive, informative and most of all, balanced. From a 'thicko's' point of view (myself) having been one who 'attended' secondary school in the seventies, I feel that even the education I received was far better than most comprehensives offer nowadays. Out of our year six went on to university, some went to art school, others entered the construction industry and in doing so became very rich. In fact I think that everyone in our year succeeded well beyond the expectations of our teachers.
There is a common misconception about grammar schools in that for some reason everbody thinks that "If you went to a grammar school you must therefore go to a 'Uni', whereas most of my friends who where at the local 'grammar' nearly all went into apprenticeships and became engineers. ( Bloody handy as well, when I was at the local tech.college, their maths knowledge was always in demand and probably the reason why I passed my exams)
On the subject of fee-paying schools, I'm quite ambivalent about them, just because the kids that go because their parents thought that "It would be good for Julian" doesn't mean that he'll become a 'God-like genius'. I have friends that have been to public schools and they're doing everday jobs like everyone else and most importantly don't have a chip on their shoulders.
On the thoughts of present day education I'm not going to reiterate what's been said already by other poster's but just to add something's gone 'a bit Pete Tong'.
Die, fee-paying schools
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Sam Slater
- Posts: 11624
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Die, fee-paying schools
[quote]Assuming that they do, how else will we change values structures, aims and aspirations for the better?[/quote]
By debate? Letting children learn for themselves on certain political and social issues leads to a more diverse society - especially when it comes to viewpoints and ideas.
Most political and moral outlooks are subjective anyway. By all means educate them on past events, so they may learn the pitfalls of the past, but education should be primarily based on facts, not subjectivity.
For instance, I still remember my old English teacher telling me that if I wanted a good newspaper to read, the Observer was without a doubt the best you could read. That grammatically and punctuationally(?), it was far above the rest. I was 14...15. Looking back, was this woman correct in recommending what tabloids her kids should be reading as adults? Indoctrination? Years later, I decided for myself what papers to read, but I think she overstepped the mark.
I'm all for pointing kids in the right direction, morally, but if it means leaving school not knowing who Oliver Cromwell was, or the difference between a comma and a semi-colon, then I have a problem with it.
By debate? Letting children learn for themselves on certain political and social issues leads to a more diverse society - especially when it comes to viewpoints and ideas.
Most political and moral outlooks are subjective anyway. By all means educate them on past events, so they may learn the pitfalls of the past, but education should be primarily based on facts, not subjectivity.
For instance, I still remember my old English teacher telling me that if I wanted a good newspaper to read, the Observer was without a doubt the best you could read. That grammatically and punctuationally(?), it was far above the rest. I was 14...15. Looking back, was this woman correct in recommending what tabloids her kids should be reading as adults? Indoctrination? Years later, I decided for myself what papers to read, but I think she overstepped the mark.
I'm all for pointing kids in the right direction, morally, but if it means leaving school not knowing who Oliver Cromwell was, or the difference between a comma and a semi-colon, then I have a problem with it.
[i]I used to spend a lot of time criticizing Islam on here in the noughties - but things are much better now.[/i]
Re: Die, fee-paying schools
Sam Slater wrote:
> I'm all for pointing kids in the right direction, morally, but
> if it means leaving school not knowing who Oliver Cromwell was,
> or the difference between a comma and a semi-colon, then I have
> a problem with it.
>
I totally agree, Sam.
But one thing we must do is to ensure that subjects are properly taught. For years, the study of history could have been retitled 'Isn't England Wonderful'. Well, guess what- it isn't.
A good example of this is Cromwell. We learn all about the Civil War and nothing about his rape of Ireland.
How did I find out about it? An Elvis Costello song.
> I'm all for pointing kids in the right direction, morally, but
> if it means leaving school not knowing who Oliver Cromwell was,
> or the difference between a comma and a semi-colon, then I have
> a problem with it.
>
I totally agree, Sam.
But one thing we must do is to ensure that subjects are properly taught. For years, the study of history could have been retitled 'Isn't England Wonderful'. Well, guess what- it isn't.
A good example of this is Cromwell. We learn all about the Civil War and nothing about his rape of Ireland.
How did I find out about it? An Elvis Costello song.
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Officer Dibble
- Posts: 2372
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Die, fee-paying schools
"But one thing we must do is to ensure that subjects are properly taught. For years, the study of history could have been retitled 'Isn't England Wonderful'. Well, guess what- it isn't."
This is true, you've only got to scan the news of an evening to see that England is quite some distance short of wonderful at the moment. However, lets get things into perspective - compared with say, Zimbabwe, Rwanda, North Korea, Iraq, Iran, Somalia, Kenya, etc, it is pretty much a land of milk and honey, a land of beneficent enlightenment, a land of people whose superior qualities and culture has proved so successful that our language and customs have been adopted in one form or another by most of the world.
These are reasons to be cheerful. So, we (and our kids) should celebrate England and the English people - their victories and their achievements. Because compared with many other nations and peoples we are paragons of virtue, enlightenment, and justice.
We should be firing our children?s passions for England by telling them about Henry the V kicking ass at Agincourt, Nelson?s victories at the Nile and Trafalgar - and not forgetting about The Duke of Wellington smarting Napoleon up at Waterloo. We should be telling our kids about our cultural and scientific achievements and how we brought civilization to many exotic far-flung lands, and also pointing out how quickly lands can revert back to their old, backward, barbarous, ways if the people there are not up to it. We certainly don?t want to be teaching our kids that we are crap and giving them all sorts of complexes ? because, though we may have our faults, in comparison to many other peoples we are obviously great!
Officer Dibble
This is true, you've only got to scan the news of an evening to see that England is quite some distance short of wonderful at the moment. However, lets get things into perspective - compared with say, Zimbabwe, Rwanda, North Korea, Iraq, Iran, Somalia, Kenya, etc, it is pretty much a land of milk and honey, a land of beneficent enlightenment, a land of people whose superior qualities and culture has proved so successful that our language and customs have been adopted in one form or another by most of the world.
These are reasons to be cheerful. So, we (and our kids) should celebrate England and the English people - their victories and their achievements. Because compared with many other nations and peoples we are paragons of virtue, enlightenment, and justice.
We should be firing our children?s passions for England by telling them about Henry the V kicking ass at Agincourt, Nelson?s victories at the Nile and Trafalgar - and not forgetting about The Duke of Wellington smarting Napoleon up at Waterloo. We should be telling our kids about our cultural and scientific achievements and how we brought civilization to many exotic far-flung lands, and also pointing out how quickly lands can revert back to their old, backward, barbarous, ways if the people there are not up to it. We certainly don?t want to be teaching our kids that we are crap and giving them all sorts of complexes ? because, though we may have our faults, in comparison to many other peoples we are obviously great!
Officer Dibble
Re: Die, fee-paying schools
It's always a pleasure to debate with you, Dibbs. You provide a sustainable right-wing perspective free from 'headbanging', and which I welcome as a pluralist who wants people to see all [sensible] sides of an argument.
Officer Dibble wrote:
> "But one thing we must do is to ensure that subjects are
> properly taught. For years, the study of history could have
> been retitled 'Isn't England Wonderful'. Well, guess what- it
> isn't."
>
> This is true, you've only got to scan the news of an evening to
> see that England is quite some distance short of wonderful at
> the moment. However, lets get things into perspective -
> compared with say, Zimbabwe, Rwanda, North Korea, Iraq, Iran,
> Somalia, Kenya, etc, it is pretty much a land of milk and
> honey, a land of beneficent enlightenment, a land of people
> whose superior qualities and culture has proved so successful
> that our language and customs have been adopted in one form or
> another by most of the world.
I fully agree.
>
> These are reasons to be cheerful. So, we (and our kids) should
> celebrate England and the English people - their victories and
> their achievements. Because compared with many other nations
> and peoples we are paragons of virtue, enlightenment, and
> justice.
This is the stuff. Why are you not teaching and Zooter is?
>
> We should be firing our children?s passions for England by
> telling them about Henry the V kicking ass at Agincourt,
> Nelson?s victories at the Nile and Trafalgar - and not
> forgetting about The Duke of Wellington smarting Napoleon up at
> Waterloo. We should be telling our kids about our cultural and
> scientific achievements and how we brought civilization to many
> exotic far-flung lands, and also pointing out how quickly lands
> can revert back to their old, backward, barbarous, ways if the
> people there are not up to it. We certainly don?t want to be
> teaching our kids that we are crap and giving them all sorts of
> complexes ? because, though we may have our faults, in
> comparison to many other peoples we are obviously great!
Now....
Henry V was Welsh...Monmouth has a statue of him and an Agincourt Square. Name me an English town that has that.
Wellington was an Irishman- although he hated the fact and wished he was English. A bit like Shane McGowan in reverse.
You have hit the nail on the head. What traditional English history has been about has been annexing all the good things from the countries we have ermmm....annexed. Welsh, Scots and Irish have all been injected into this rose-tinted view of 'England' at the cost of their own national pride.
When will we realise that Britain is a trading name now, and a free association of four or five [Cornwall?] nations- rather than an homogeonous land. If it ever was.
Then there are the resources and peoples displaced by the march of England. The slave trade....the Aboriginals....you get the idea. I disagree with compensation payments..but I am glad we apologised for the slave trade and the Aussies will apologise to the Aboriginals. It is always governments of the centre and left that do that, Dibbs. Not those of the right.
Officer Dibble wrote:
> "But one thing we must do is to ensure that subjects are
> properly taught. For years, the study of history could have
> been retitled 'Isn't England Wonderful'. Well, guess what- it
> isn't."
>
> This is true, you've only got to scan the news of an evening to
> see that England is quite some distance short of wonderful at
> the moment. However, lets get things into perspective -
> compared with say, Zimbabwe, Rwanda, North Korea, Iraq, Iran,
> Somalia, Kenya, etc, it is pretty much a land of milk and
> honey, a land of beneficent enlightenment, a land of people
> whose superior qualities and culture has proved so successful
> that our language and customs have been adopted in one form or
> another by most of the world.
I fully agree.
>
> These are reasons to be cheerful. So, we (and our kids) should
> celebrate England and the English people - their victories and
> their achievements. Because compared with many other nations
> and peoples we are paragons of virtue, enlightenment, and
> justice.
This is the stuff. Why are you not teaching and Zooter is?
>
> We should be firing our children?s passions for England by
> telling them about Henry the V kicking ass at Agincourt,
> Nelson?s victories at the Nile and Trafalgar - and not
> forgetting about The Duke of Wellington smarting Napoleon up at
> Waterloo. We should be telling our kids about our cultural and
> scientific achievements and how we brought civilization to many
> exotic far-flung lands, and also pointing out how quickly lands
> can revert back to their old, backward, barbarous, ways if the
> people there are not up to it. We certainly don?t want to be
> teaching our kids that we are crap and giving them all sorts of
> complexes ? because, though we may have our faults, in
> comparison to many other peoples we are obviously great!
Now....
Henry V was Welsh...Monmouth has a statue of him and an Agincourt Square. Name me an English town that has that.
Wellington was an Irishman- although he hated the fact and wished he was English. A bit like Shane McGowan in reverse.
You have hit the nail on the head. What traditional English history has been about has been annexing all the good things from the countries we have ermmm....annexed. Welsh, Scots and Irish have all been injected into this rose-tinted view of 'England' at the cost of their own national pride.
When will we realise that Britain is a trading name now, and a free association of four or five [Cornwall?] nations- rather than an homogeonous land. If it ever was.
Then there are the resources and peoples displaced by the march of England. The slave trade....the Aboriginals....you get the idea. I disagree with compensation payments..but I am glad we apologised for the slave trade and the Aussies will apologise to the Aboriginals. It is always governments of the centre and left that do that, Dibbs. Not those of the right.