Lily Allen retires..

[The Last Word]

David Johnson wrote:

> Startling news for some posters in this thread. Showbiz is an
> act.

> Like when Judy Dench is on stage at the National Theatre. She
> doesn't necessarily believe in what she is saying. Like when
> Mick Jagger is wheeled on stage to sing Street Fighting Man, he
> isn't going to walk off stage and join a riot. Like when Lily
> Allen and others sing about aspects of council estate life,
> they don't need to have been brought up on a council estate.
> Like when Turner painted seascapes, he didn't have to be a
> sailor all his life.

We know it's an act, but it's the nature and sincerity of the act that's the key.

[Jonone]

David, you would accept that when Polanski makes a film like The Pianist it's more than 'showbiz' ?

People that have a personal investment in what they're doing tend to make more significant art. For example The Stones were all r&b enthusiasts and their best work reflects this.

I wouldn't know what Allen's enthusiasms are .. being in the headlines and making money maybe ?

[max_tranmere]

Most people who write (or co-write) 'real life' lyrics do it purporting to have some personal association/experience of that, or at the very least they have a lot of interest in that subject. Some people have become characters and write and perform in that guise - whether it be a physical look, or just a kind of mental persona they embody for an album/tour/phase of their career. Examples are David Bowie in his Ziggy Stardust phase, Damon Albarn from Blur in the 1990's (Fred Perry t-shirts, trainers, stories of urban life, lager drinking, etc - although he at least came from a working class background), or U2's Bono with characters he created in the 1990's as that mad egotist The Fly or as Mr Macphisto:





Lily Allen just pretends to be working class in a very false way, just like the chef Jamie Oliver used to (and may still do, I dont know, I dont watch his programmes).

[planeterotica]

To be honest i couldnt care a less about her class or background i just dont like her style of so called music.

[The Last Word]

max_tranmere wrote:

> Damon Albarn from Blur in the 1990's (Fred Perry
> t-shirts, trainers, stories of urban life, lager drinking, etc
> - although he at least came from a working class background),

You sure about that?

> Lily Allen just pretends to be working class in a very false way.

That's what grates with the whole class issue. Is/was she genuinely trying for actual working classness, or is the emphasis on the pretence? i.e. it's not a case of being working class is cool, but pretending to be is cool. Ergo, being middle class is cool, because it allows you this pretence that can be so easily discarded once it's passed its sell-by date.

You don't have the luxury of pretending if you're actually working class, and you're left with it once it's time in vogue has gone. No wonder the Gallaghers hated Blur.

[David Johnson]

"We know it's an act, but it's the nature and sincerity of the act that's the key"

Err. An act is an act. If it is well done, all to the good. We're talking Lily Allen here. It's pop, not Dostoevsky.

D

[David Johnson]

"For example The Stones were all r&b enthusiasts and their best work reflects this."

You seem to be proving my point. Were the Stones r&b numbers their best work because they were living in the cotton picking fields of Kingston upon Thames at the time?

I suspect not. Lily Allen is clearly into quirky pop with observant lyrics on various aspects of modern life. Unlike some of the posters here, I do not think she had to be brought up on a council estate in order to successfully include lyrics about that life. Just as the Stones could produce some good r&b stuff without being brought up in apartheid ridden Louisiana.

If Lily had to have been brought up on a council estate, then only police staff can write crime thrillers or solders write about war etc etc.

D

[David Johnson]

"Damon Albarn from Blur in the 1990's (Fred Perry t-shirts, trainers, stories of urban life, lager drinking, etc - although he at least came from a working class background)"

And here's me thinking that Albarn and Blur were good middle class art school boys. Not that it makes any difference to me, but it obviously does to you based on your comments about Lily Allen.

Looks like you have been taken in by their act, Max. Oi, oi, I'm goin darn the dogs for a flutter.

D

[The Last Word]

David Johnson wrote:

> Err. An act is an act. If it is well done, all to the good.

And just how is this 'well done' achieved then? I know there's something to be said about how good the purely, cynically conceived can sometimes be, especially in pop, but as Jonone has twice highlighted earlier, those that genuinely mean it are usually the ones that get the results.

> We're talking Lily Allen here. It's pop, not Dostoevsky.

Her musical crimes are our punishment perhaps?

[David Johnson]

"And just how is this 'well done' achieved then?"

Very simply, two things are required.

1. An understanding of the genre/content that you are into to. In the case of quirky pop like Lily Allen this involves sharp lyrics and interesting rhythyms. In the case of detective stories for example, it involves research into crime, procedure etc.
2. A technical ability to deliver e.g. in the case of music, the capability to convert your ideas/lyrics into something memorable. In the case of detective stories, an understanding of the structure and formats of the detective story and a keen ear for dialogue and scene setting.

What you DO NOT need to be a writer of detective stories is a detective. What you DO NOT need to be a writer/performer of pop songs is to have lived that specific experience yourself. What you DO need is insight and empathy.

You mention Jonone.

His post supports my view. He regards the Stones best work to be their R&B stuff. They weren't black guys born in the Louisiana delta or downtown Chicago home boys. They did however have a feel for the genre/content and the technical ability to delivery R&B.

D