Hi
As everyone on this forum must know, I am totally unbiased! !laugh!
And to illustrate this point I have been asked by an inveterate forum reader to point out that the Private Finance Initiative (PFI) and the Private Public Partnership (PPP) which is where private companies typically build hospitals etc.and then lease them back to the governmemnt has an obvious impact on national debt.
In 2006, the Treasury rules were changed to include most of PFI debts into the national debt. For those of you (not many I would guess), who enjoy bedtime reading of this stuff, here you go.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. ... _aug06.pdf
So from 2006 most, although not all of these deals are included in the National Debt.
Personally I dont think the above invalidates anything that I have stated, but in the interests of balance......
Cheers
D
Lib Dem Cons to destroy economy?
Re: In summary Robches
.
>
> I realise that I took the piss out of you in this thread, but
> if all you can come up with against all of the above is a bleat
> about Keynesian multipliers, maybe you are a teeny bit out of
> your depth? Hence I assume the "fuck" and " cock" etc in your
> emails as you search for swearing as an alternative for facts
> to back up your unsubstantiated opinions.
>
> Cheers
> D
No, it's because you are a fucking cock. Now just fuck off and annoy somebody else.
>
> I realise that I took the piss out of you in this thread, but
> if all you can come up with against all of the above is a bleat
> about Keynesian multipliers, maybe you are a teeny bit out of
> your depth? Hence I assume the "fuck" and " cock" etc in your
> emails as you search for swearing as an alternative for facts
> to back up your unsubstantiated opinions.
>
> Cheers
> D
No, it's because you are a fucking cock. Now just fuck off and annoy somebody else.
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David Johnson
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alicia_fan_uk
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Re: Private Finance Initiative
David,
The document you cite is not only 4 years old (much has changed since), but it also deals in on-balance sheet PFIs. "In 2006, the Treasury rules were changed to include most of PFI debts into the national debt". Nope. Not including off-balance sheet deals is like pissing in the wind - off-balance sheet was the aim for such deals.
PFI accounting is a world of risk/reward analysis, Schedule and contract clause analysis, Monte Carlo simulations, financial models (usually operator/provider model) and a fuck load of smoke and mirrors. It is only now, with a gradual move from UK GAAP to IFRS reporting that substantially more PFI deals are comming on balance sheet, largely due to IFRIC 12 (service concessions) considerations. Confused/bored shiteless yet? Most people are, and that very situation works to the advantage of those who stand to gain from it.
Absolutely nothing has changed about the nature, extent, value or risk/reward of most PFI deals, yet Local Authority/Trust/Board/Education institution balance sheets are gradually being saddled with PFI assets and liabilities, where before there was sweet FA for the very same contract.
Oh, and the Treasury are still trying to stop this all hitting their various measures and stats....
The document you cite is not only 4 years old (much has changed since), but it also deals in on-balance sheet PFIs. "In 2006, the Treasury rules were changed to include most of PFI debts into the national debt". Nope. Not including off-balance sheet deals is like pissing in the wind - off-balance sheet was the aim for such deals.
PFI accounting is a world of risk/reward analysis, Schedule and contract clause analysis, Monte Carlo simulations, financial models (usually operator/provider model) and a fuck load of smoke and mirrors. It is only now, with a gradual move from UK GAAP to IFRS reporting that substantially more PFI deals are comming on balance sheet, largely due to IFRIC 12 (service concessions) considerations. Confused/bored shiteless yet? Most people are, and that very situation works to the advantage of those who stand to gain from it.
Absolutely nothing has changed about the nature, extent, value or risk/reward of most PFI deals, yet Local Authority/Trust/Board/Education institution balance sheets are gradually being saddled with PFI assets and liabilities, where before there was sweet FA for the very same contract.
Oh, and the Treasury are still trying to stop this all hitting their various measures and stats....
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David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Private Finance Initiative
Thanks for the update. I realised that the pdf was 4 years old.
PFI always struck me as a Blairite nonsense, personally.
Any guessestimates out there of the percentage by value of PFIs that are not incorporated into national debt figures?
Cheers
D
PFI always struck me as a Blairite nonsense, personally.
Any guessestimates out there of the percentage by value of PFIs that are not incorporated into national debt figures?
Cheers
D
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alicia_fan_uk
- Posts: 296
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Private Finance Initiative
David,
The bulk of them. But it really depends who you ask and what particular measure is being asked after - see for a very brief overview. (Translation of the consultant comment - "Thank fuck the govt can continue to exclude PFI figures....we make a fucking bucket advising on these deals and with the figures being accounted for this way we they can now continue to be signed. Whay-hay!"). PFI was the rouse that avoided the Govt's (arbitrarily derived and widely-phrased) "5 golden rules" being breached.
More and more PFI schemes previously off balance sheet are coming on balance sheet - but only at the departmental level (not the overall govt balance sheet), and even then only as quickly as the particular body is adopting IFRS reporting. (For example, a Local Authority may have pretty much the same deal for a PFI building as a NHS Trust/Board, but the former will be off balance sheet for 2009/10, but the latter will be on balance sheet for the same period!).
This confuses, bores and frustrates people in equal measure.
alicia_fan_uk
The bulk of them. But it really depends who you ask and what particular measure is being asked after - see for a very brief overview. (Translation of the consultant comment - "Thank fuck the govt can continue to exclude PFI figures....we make a fucking bucket advising on these deals and with the figures being accounted for this way we they can now continue to be signed. Whay-hay!"). PFI was the rouse that avoided the Govt's (arbitrarily derived and widely-phrased) "5 golden rules" being breached.
More and more PFI schemes previously off balance sheet are coming on balance sheet - but only at the departmental level (not the overall govt balance sheet), and even then only as quickly as the particular body is adopting IFRS reporting. (For example, a Local Authority may have pretty much the same deal for a PFI building as a NHS Trust/Board, but the former will be off balance sheet for 2009/10, but the latter will be on balance sheet for the same period!).
This confuses, bores and frustrates people in equal measure.
alicia_fan_uk
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alicia_fan_uk
- Posts: 296
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Private Finance Initiative
When I say "will" for the Local Authority above, I meant "may" - it relates to the type of accounting being adopted for the reporting period and the application of IFRIC 12. Yawn.
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David Johnson
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- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Private Finance Initiative
Thanks for the info. Seems perfectly straightforward then! !wink!
Cheers
D
Cheers
D