Hillsborough Inquest....

[Milk Tray Man]

Essex Lad wrote:

> The families of the 96 want justice but what kind of justice?
> The original inquest verdicts ? now overturned ? say that they
> were killed unlawfully.
>
> Will new inquests return a different verdict?


No, the original verdicts were accidental death. That's why the scousers demanded a new inquest because they want unlawful killing verdicts.

And David I think it's pretty clear that after the old bill's bungled cover-up of their own mistakes was rumbled, the establishment was deeply embarrassed and ashamed, and as a result it became politically inconceivable that any blame whatsoever would ever be attached to any Liverpool supporters by any official enquiry from Taylor onwards. The cover-up was a massive own goal and were it not for that, this whole thing would have been put to bed years ago.

Massive failings on the part of the police in terms of crowd control yes absolutely. But we are now expected to accept that the CCTV footage that we have all seen of hordes of scousers still pushing and shoving to get into the ground like so many lemmings despite the fact that there was clearly a problem was all a mirage, and that they were really forming neat orderly queues. And of course not a drop of drink had passed any of their lips all day.

[David Johnson]

"But we are now expected to accept that the CCTV footage that we have all seen of hordes of scousers still pushing and shoving to get into the ground like so many lemmings despite the fact that there was clearly a problem was all a mirage, and that they were really forming neat orderly queues. And of course not a drop of drink had passed any of their lips all day."

This is just complete supposition and no facts whatsoever. If you had been at a football match during those days, you would be aware that football fans did not wear dinner jackets, say "After you, no after you" and invariably drink Appletizer.

And surprise, surprise there weren't disasters at every match. So what you need to ask yourself then is what was different at Hillsborough? And the answer is even if the fans had worn dinner jackets and formed orderly queues there would likely to have been a problem because Dukinfield was hopelessly inexperienced, had not learnt any of the lessons of earlier crushes at Hillsborough and he and his men were not monitoring the pens properly re. overcrowding. As well as that because he was so inexperienced, indecision was final.

[Milk Tray Man]

David, I absolutely agree with you that police incompetence and mistakes played a major role, and have said so above more than once.

Of course football supporters weren't teetotal dinner-jacket wearers back then, and nor are they now (but maybe that's partly the point eh? After all - how many crush disasters can you think of that have occurred at operas and theatres?!)

The fact is that in the '70s and '80s most clubs - Liverpool included - had its hooligan element, and climbing gates etc. to get in for free, pitch invasions and other antics were also commonplace. That's why the decision was taken in the first place to build fences and pens.

So what we have is an inexperienced police commander on the day, mistakes by the stewards, a ground that was at the time probably unfit for purpose, pens and fences. Add to that fans pushing and shoving and you have the final piece of the jigsaw for the perfect storm. And as many commentators have said, the it was a disaster waiting to happen at an English football match somewhere and the biggest surprise is probably that it actually took so long to happen.

A football match, note! Not at a cricket match, not at a rubgy match, not at a major stadium rock concert. And of course not at the opera. Because all of those lacked that one key magical ingredient: No football crowd.

[David Johnson]

Once again you focus on pushing and shoving as if that was one of the causes of the deaths.

What I am saying is that given the layout of the ground and the fact that there was not a one to one or many to one relationship between turnstiles and pens at Hillsborough, it was perfectly possible to have a crush in which people died even if supporters were extremely well mannered, did not push whatsoever and their number was well below the overall capacity of the Leppings Lane terraces.

[Milk Tray Man]

That's because no matter what the enquiries to date have said (all of which were conducted in an atmosphere of "we must appease the scousers in view of the fact that the old bill lied"), it probably was a contributory factor - even if only a minor one.

I agree with you about the ground layout (as I said above, ground probably not fit for purpose).

A couple of posts higher up though, you accuse me of supposition. Yet you are quite happy to 'suppose' yourself that if they had all been queuing up in dinner jackets and saying "after you", the disaster would still probably have happened.

Personally I think it would have been far less likely (to the point of improbable) that it would have played out that way, had there been orderly queues rather than the massive free-for-all ruck that we saw behind the Leppings Lane end. Common sense surely?

[David Johnson]

"That's because no matter what the enquiries to date have said (all of which were conducted in an atmosphere of "we must appease the scousers in view of the fact that the old bill lied"),

You have no evidence whatsoever for the above statement "we must appease the scousers". Have you? It is pure guesswork.

What is a FACT is that it has taken 25 years to get the original inquest verdict of accidental death quashed and a new inquest opened. It is also a FACT that if there had been an atmosphere of "appeasing the scousers" the authorities have been piss poor about meeting that objective haven't they? The families still haven't got to the bottom of why exactly their loved ones died 25 years after the event and no-one has been held responsible given that accidental death was the only finding so far and that has been quashed.

it probably was a contributory factor - even if only a minor one."

You have no evidence whatsoever for the above statement. Have you?

I do not know how old you are but I went to matches in the sixties, seventies and eighties and stood on the terraces. I can categorically tell you that I never went to a big match when there wasn't an element of swaying and pushing as the crowd watched the goal mouth action. And again, I can categorically tell you that there were always people there who had had a few. Supporters were invariably treated like cattle on the terraces.

So you have to ask yourself "In the umpteen thousand matches that were played in the above conditions with pushing and shoving why were there not disasters like Hillsborough reqularly?" The reason was that thankfully the almost complete incompetence of Dukinfield and his men, together with a catastrophic lack of experience was an extreme rarity in the policing of football matches.

"A couple of posts higher up though, you accuse me of supposition. Yet you are quite happy to 'suppose' yourself that if they had all been queuing up in dinner jackets and saying "after you", the disaster would still probably have happened."

There is no need for me to "suppose" that. What is a FACT is that given the layout of the pens within the Leppings Lane terrace and the relationship of pens to turnstiles it was perfectly possible to have a crush without ticketless fans. Look at the references to the work of the Health and Safety Executive elsewhere in this thread.

[Milk Tray Man]

David Johnson wrote:

> What is a FACT is
> that given the layout of the pens within the Leppings Lane
> terrace and the relationship of pens to turnstiles it was
> perfectly possible to have a crush without ticketless fans.
> Look at the references to the work of the Health and Safety
> Executive elsewhere in this thread.


Well you can argue that anything is "possible" can't you?

Just answer me this:

At ground A you have an inexperienced police commander, a poor turnstile layout, pens, fences and a free-for all scrum of fans trying to get in.

At ground B you have an inexperienced police commander, a poor turnstile layout, pens, fences and orderly queues of fans waiting to get in.

At which ground do you think that a serious problem is more likely to occur?

[David Johnson]

"Well you can argue that anything is "possible" can't you?"

No. I wouldn't argue that it is possible that you come from Mars or that I am on a fleeting visit from Saturn. You are absolutely wrong. Why? Read the HSE findings about the pen structure at Leppings Lane. I refuse to keep on repeating myself to people who can't be arsed to find the answer themselves.

"At ground A you have an inexperienced police commander, a poor turnstile layout, pens, fences and a free-for all scrum of fans trying to get in.

At ground B you have an inexperienced police commander, a poor turnstile layout, pens, fences and orderly queues of fans waiting to get in."

I have already answered this question. In the situation at Hillsborough, whether there is a bit of pushing to get in or a Royal Opera like approach, it is irrelevant in this case because of the inexperienced police commander, a poor turnstile layout, pens, fences etc and NO ATTEMPT TO CLOSE OFF ACCESS TO THE PENS THAT WERE ALREADY FULL EVEN THOUGH THIS HAD BEEN DONE IN THE PREVIOUS YEAR(S) TO PREVENT CRUSHES DEVELOPING IN THE PENS. AND IF YOU CAN EVER BE ARSED TO ACTUALLY READ THE KEY PARTS OF THE DOCUMENTATION, READ ABOUT THE TUNNEL THAT LED PEOPLE INTO THE PENS.

[David Johnson]

This might help



or then again.......

[JamesW]

Milk Tray Man wrote:

> Just answer me this:
>
> At ground A you have an inexperienced police commander, a poor
> turnstile layout, pens, fences and a free-for all scrum of fans
> trying to get in.


Milk Tray Man is resorting to invention to try and make his views seem more plausible. There was no free-for all scrum of fans trying to get in that day. The available footage from that day does not support his claims at all.

After reading the link provided by David Johnson, Milk tray Man should also read this link:

http://thegreatcritique.wordpress.com/2 ... g-shoving/