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Re: Dude, Where's My Country?

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:03 pm
by Pervert
The more rural states have more history of dealing with firearms and knowing how and when to use them. I suspect (suspect, mind you, since I have no proof to offer) that respect for the weapon is instilled into a child as he or she grows, so that it isn't seen as a toy when they are finally allowed to use it. The areas where most killings take place, well you're talking about your major east coast urban centres: Boston, New York, Washington and Baltimore. In the city there is more a cult of the gun. Gang members think ownership of a gun earns them respect. It doesn't. Respect comes from what you do, not what you carry.

It's this cult of the gun which needs to be recognised and dealt with. Any country where children take guns to school has a problem. So long as people keep pushing the "empowerment" side of weapons, things will only get worse. But that's coming from a pacifistic Brit with no interest in guns, so feel free to ignore me.

Re: Dude, Where's My Country?

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:11 pm
by Pervert
Simplistic and easy, yes, but perhaps they have to be. Any US president could come to a public gathering, the blood of a freshly eaten baby around his mouth, carrying the head of Mickey Mouse and exhibiting photos of him having sex with the mother of everyone there, and would still get a standing ovation just by sincerely voicing the words, "God bless America!" What does that say about the people they're talking to?

Virtually all we see in this country are such events, which is why to many of us the US and the governing party are inseparable. There's little visible opposition, so we have to rely on people like Moore to put the other side. Yes, it may be simplistic and easy, but it's also something of a novelty hearing an American speak against what his country (in the shape of the White House and Congress) is up to.

Re: Dude, Where's My Country?

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:30 pm
by jj
You're repeating the earlier error: since when has it been 'anti-American' to attack one area of its culture?

Re: Dude, Where's My Country?

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:48 pm
by jj
Very interesting corrections, discussion and stats.
I have no stats to offer in rebuttal, but almost everything I see in the US popular media leads me to the conclusion that there is a very strong current that suggests that force is the way of choice to deal with any problem. 'Gun culture' for want of a better term, may be a symptom or a cause, but the underlying problem is still there. I agree how nice it would be to walk the streets safe in the knowledge that I need fear no man because I'm armed.......and that's exactly where the terrible temptation begins. Guns ARE too dangerous to be trusted to the 'reasonable man in the street': because guns are in direct contradiction of that self-same reason.
Dunblane was shocking precisely becaue of its rarity: in a country like the UK where gun-ownership is very restricted, all gun-owners are objects of immediate suspicion- which I regard as a healthy attitude- and gun-crime is VERY severely treated by the courts. You can never completely render a nation proof against madmen, but allowing ALL madmen free access to firearms is probably not the best place to start.
I totally agree that restriction of firearm-ownership is only a part of the solution: but you have to start somewhere, and the NRA would be a pretty good place. I've read a good bit of their publicity, and find it hard not to conclude that their answer to you disagreeing with them would be to shoot you.
As to guns being a bulwark against tyranny: I'm sorry, that's just laughable. Dictators get into power by buying-off an already-armed section of society, i.e the army. A flourishing middle-class is a better defence against tyranny than any number of Kalashnikovs.

Re: Dude, Where's My Country?

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 12:14 am
by mart
Nowhere in my quote does it say anything about banning the sale of guns. The reference is to records of purchase.
But Bimmercat, you never let the facts get in the way.
Reading your later posts I have come to realise why the UK and other (so-called) democracies are run by Marxist, left-leaning, socialist reds. Its because the people dont own guns to overthrow the Soviet-style dictatorial Commies.

Mart


Re: Dude, Where's My Logic?

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:12 am
by jj
English Law has long had the notion of 'reasonable force' in defending one's home against malefactors. And forbearance ought not to be confused with 'cowardice'.......a proportionate response is what is required, whether the threat be personal or national..
As you pointed out yourself, at least with cars a modicum of training is given: not that that warrants the over-use of these tools anyway- there are besides other trenchant arguments against the Cult of the Car. But I do believe much stricter rules ought to be applied to those who take charge of potentially lethal machinery, whether fitted with brakes or breeches............
If the NRA have in the past pressed for gun reform, good luck to them: but people can hardly be blamed for treating their ideas with scepticism.
And if 'average' Americans are worried at the false image that their media are projecting of their nation, the power to change that impression lies in their own hands.
I wish them well.

Re: ...for every action...

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 7:43 am
by Deuce Bigolo
or you can be rich and speak out against THOSE in power and hold left wing views

One thing is for sure....whoever is in power will commit
atrocities no matter what-absolute power corrupts

It has nothing to do with left or right wing ideology just POWER

cheers
B....OZ