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Zooter sounds sensible in his profile except:

He reads the Telegraph for the cricket coverage, as I do.

He is surely working class. The only middle class progressives are Liberals!

I hope that he will be more mature now he has returned to us all- he was missed. And not the dick he had been the last few weeks.

Quite. I've noticed that the middle classes frequently try to imbue themselves with street credibility by making out that they are working class - or that class in no longer an issue, as we are all middleclass now. Ha!

You see, their problem is that it's difficult to talk about class struggle and rail against social injustice when you are the eminently comfortable and privileged sons of the educated gentry. What have they got to struggle against? They?ve already got security, opportunity and comparative wealth. They?re sorted. They aught to shut the fuck up and be grateful - instead of making twats of themselves by talking a load of pretentious socialist ball bag.

I fear the middle classes have not forgiven the working classes for choosing Mrs. T?s Barrett houses, new Ford Focuses, and trips to Miami over grey overalls, tractor factories, modern tenement blocks, and collectivism - which is what the snooty intellectual middleclass elite had in mind for them. They expected the working classes to rise up and, arm in arm with gay boys, lezzies, and 'wimmin', go marching of into a red sunset of proletarian nirvana. Yes, it was a right old poke in the eye for the dour sniffy fuckers of Islington when they we?re given the heave-ho. Ever since then they?ve been just that bit more contemptuous of the working classes and have switched the focus of their attentions to ethnics, gay boys and wimmin? etc. In short, identity politics. They know the working classes are a lost cause now that they?ve been shown the delights of the capitalist club.



Officer Dibble

The Islington crowd you rail against, Ossifer, are just as guilty of sweeping generalisations as you are.

And if you think Thatch was anyone's saviour, then you are sadly delusional.

For what it's worth, I am working class by birth but since I don't work with my hands can't pretend to be that any more; egalitarian by philosophy, but contemptuous and sneering by experience; idealistic by nature, cynical by lessons in life.

Few of us can be pigeon-holed. The most seemingly straightforward person can, without warning, reveal hidden depths of kindness and compassion, cruelty and savagery, sensitivity and an appreciation of art. We're not the Greek chorus of followers chanting, "Yes, we're all individuals!"---we're the wee guy at the front tentatively putting his hand up and saying, "I'm not."

This pretence of a class war between the handy geezers and the Guardian readers is bollocks, and you're intelligent enough to know that. Many of us rate your intelligence higher than you might imagine, so why do you insult ours?

Warren, I'd like to point out I was serious about being underclass, I'm not a BNP supporter in fact i am one of less than a thousand in my home city whom voted for the Scottish Socialist Party untill Tommy Sheridan started his shenanigans.

"The Islington crowd you rail against, Ossifer, are just as guilty of sweeping generalizations as you are."

There's nothing wrong with sweeping generalizations - they're a massive time saver. Otherwise one would have to spend hours, days, or even weeks acknowledging the different (though broadly similar) facets of every individual item or event. Discourse would become impossible. Decisions would become interminable. This is why we take a broad view of things.


?And if you think Thatch was anyone's saviour, then you are sadly delusional.?

Well, she definitely saved me and my peers from a life of unionized proletarian drudgery in the tractor factory (or equivalent). I?m sure I?m not imagining the Mercs, Beemers and Porkers I tend to drive nowadays or the grade 2 gaff on the edge of the countryside. All that was an impossible dream for a council estate lad back in 1978. Even Warren has acknowledged how Mrs. T?s message and offerings found great favor with the working classes back in the 80?s (wasn?t it Essex man who kept her in power?). So why do you persist in the idea that Mrs. T never achieved anything or did anything for ordinary working folks? Surely, it would be better (from the perspective of reason) to acknowledge the facts and maintain your position (if you wish) by saying that you didn?t like it all the same?


?Few of us can be pigeon-holed.?

I see your point. Nevertheless, it?s sometimes useful to do a little pigeonholing. Otherwise you might not be able to get a handle on a person. You might not be able to make a judgment, a decision. There might be interminable committee meetings (at great public expense) to decide the most prosaic of related issues.


?This pretence of a class war between the handy geezers and the Guardian readers is bollocks,?

It?s true there?s no open conflict, yet. But as working people become ever more irritated with the incessant curbs on their freedoms, the limits imposed on their aspirations, the open contempt and disrespect for their views, it?s inevitable that they will begin to see who is doing that to them. I?m not suggesting they will be blood on the streets, just that working people will turn away from the parties they have traditionally supported, to ones more in tune with their values, views, and aspirations.


?Many of us rate your intelligence higher than you might imagine, so why do you insult ours??

I?ve never insulted your intelligence Carac; indeed I rate you as one of the brightest and most enlightened here. But it?s always a source of fascination and intrigue how seemingly intelligent people come to get different ideas and views of the world into their heads. My defense is that I arrived at my position through my elevated sense, and appreciation, of logic and reason. But more importantly, it would seem, I never felt the need to fit in with a peer group. My pals were all working lads; they had absolutely no interest in politics or social issues whatsoever. It was all birds, beer and (motor) bikes. I didn?t have to fall in with the political view that was fashionable amongst my friends ? because they didn?t have one. Thus my views developed naturally, organically, untainted by the need to fit in and be cool.





Officer Dibble

My feeling of social status improved greatly when I was recently invited to sit on the Ethics Committee of one of Britain's oldest and most prestigious seats of learning - until I was brought down to Earth with a bump.

It turned out that the person extending the invitation has a lisp and was actually referring the the Essex Committee.

Needless to say, I have excused myself from all social functions since.

We could argue the whys and wherefores of ideas and beliefs all day, Mr D. Experiences count for a great deal---and since very few people share the same things in their travels through life, we will probably reach different conclusions. And believe we're right, until persuaded or proven otherwise.

Cheers for the detailed response.

Oi fuck all that shit...I'm well classy mate.

Just file me under gutter class.

Oops sorry. I couldnt spell there for abit. Lack of a refined education.

I'm from the ghetto class. Its cool innit?

Seriously though whats class got to do with anything. I can get a Baron title if i wanted. Thing is I dont have my head that far up my own arse to care about such things.

You shal lbe known henceforth as ' Baron One Eye'..