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The UN is, on the whole, a rather ineffectual talking shop. It has to be a fairly broad church in order to house the various political dogmas from Castro's Cuba to Islamic fundamentalism. If the UN has succeeded in anything, it is in keeping people talking. Countries don't always adhere to international law (whatever that is supposed to be), but by keeping open a dialogue there is always the possibility of reaching agreement.

The UN has screwed up over the years: Rwanda, the former Yugoslavia, the Middle East, etc. Part of the problem is with the constitution. Each of the permanent member states of the Security Council has a veto: France (and Russia) blocked agreement on action in Iraq; the US always vetoes condemnation of Israel. A political opportunist like Mugabe can be re-elected by playing the race card in his own country, and using it to stop fellow African nations condemning his actions, and cause widespread famine that kills thousand sof his own citizens, and his actions go unchecked.

In the end, it all boils down to morality, and whose set of values makes the most sense. Things that seem barbaric to our western eyes are looked upon as commonplace in some third world countries. Do we have the moral right to force our standards upon other people? If the answer to that is yes, then the US and its allies (including us in Britain) can expect to be doing our Batman bit for decades to come, righting wrongs wherever we find them.

Saying that we hate the Americans is wrong. Many of us hate what America is seen to stand for, and its foreign policy decisions. Can we blame 250 million people for the actions of a very few? I don't particularly like England's national identity, but it doesn't mean I hate English people (far from it). Oh, and say what you like about Michael Moore (hypocrite, lefty, whatever, and you may be right), but at least he has given the rest of the world a visible example of America's people not being shoulder to shoulder with whatever the president says and does. A democracy tends to be healthy only as long as there's a viable, vocal opposition putting a check on government actions. Over here, it's difficult to see much difference between Republican and Democrats; in a few years, it may also be true of Labour and Tories here.

It's worth bearing in mind as well that the decisions we make now will no doubt come back and bite us on the hand a decade or so down the line. Western governments for years armed, and invested in, Iraq and Syria; the Taliban when they were the Mujahadeen were armed and backed by the west when they were fighting the Russians. Quite often, as in both Gulf conflicts, the weapons aimed at our troops were built in Britain or America or France, and were never paid for.

The problem with both major political parties in the US is that they are full of pinko, queer liberals.

Mart

You are the one suggesting the people posting here are predominantly left wing. What went on in the former Yugoslavia was nothing short of atrocious, and there was plenty of calls for action there from all shades of opinion in this country.

As I write this, the UN has been investigating a massacre perpetrated by one tribe in Congo on another. Women, children, the elderly and inform made up most of the casualties, as they often tend to. It's easy to look at such things and feel, in our smug, civilised way that that is just how it is in Africa. But all wars are tribal, whether we call our tribe the alliance for peace, the Christians (or Muslims or Jews or whatever). The break-up of Yugoslavia, and the resultant ethnic cleansing, was tribal, whether it be on religious or ethnic grounds. Whether we're involved in house to house fighting in an area of Tikrit or a gangland shooting in Los Angeles, it all comes down to my people, my peer group, my territory.

Long after Dubya is dead and gone, the same old shit will be happening to the same groups of people and our equivalents will be shaking their heads and wondering what can be done.

As for Mr Bush, yes, he's a ready made scapegoat to blame for the current woes---but he is by no means the only guilty person. Decades of crazy foreign policy decisions (and not just by the US) have led us here. Twenty years ago we were cheering on plucky little Johnny Afghan. Two years ago he became the embodiment of evil. There are lessons to be learned, but are our politicians and diplomats capable of doing so? I doubt it.

Ideology aside in reality the UN is a toothless tiger given the Security Councils powers of veto.

The Nations on the security council can hardly be said to have always acted in the greater good which doesn't bode well for the future

IMO the W.T.O & World Bank are a bigger problem than any US Foreign Policy(some will say they are one in the same)....No doubt

cheers
B....OZ

Alger Hiss was not SecretaryGeneral in the current sense although, as a US Government employee, he was very much involved in the setting up of the UN. I believe he wasn't convicted of being a Soviet agent but of perjury when he sued that miserable sob Whittaker Chambers for libel. This during the amazingly liberal McCarthy(assisted by Nixon) witch trials period. I think Hiss was convicted on FBI cooked up evidence about the typewriter used to copy documents.
Who are all these other "Communists" you refer to.
I'm waiting for the Bilderberg, 10 foot Lizards, Freemasons, New World Order stuff from you.

Incidentally, with reference to another of your posts, I am not envious of people who own SUV's (sodding useless vehicles). I have no desire to own one since I don't live in the bush (as its called here in NZ) and they are pretty pointless when living in the city. To recyle an old joke about BMWs.
"Whats the difference between a porcupine and a SUV?"
"A porcupine has the pricks on the outside".

Mart

PS I have no objection to paying tax when its spent on useful things like Education, Health, Social welfare etc. but not when its used to subsidise privatised services that used to be publicly owned.

Bimmercat you mix a lot of issues up together, gun law, suv's, communists and what else when the original post was about US Foreign Policy.

Regarding your statement:

"I think they get fed a steady diet of anti-Americanism and untruths about the US and that taints them from day-one."

There are two answers:

(1) In the UK we don't, America was well liked not just here but probably throughout the world when Clinton was in power. That man tried his very best to secure peace throughout the world. Unlike most politicians who do things to get votes and make themselves look good, he actually cared.

(2) What are we supposed to think when people blindly follow their leaders without question. When they worship their own flag? When half of the country are religious nuts. When their people and military cheer and clap and their leaders smirk and celebrate when their bombs are dropped on other countries, are Foreigners not human? When so called stars denigrate those who have lost their lives for no good reason, by congratulating the murderers with a shameful movie plug "you guys are the true terminators." Have they no decency, no respect?